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14 October 2020

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JohnH

The hypocrisy is with the Church, which calls out people for their stance on abortion but never for violating the Just War Doctrine. Back in the day, the Vatican even fought a lot of wars, oblivious to the ethics.

May they all depart the Church.

A. Pols

I was raised Catholic, but lapsed in my youth and never returned. It was largely because I knew the Chinese restaurant menu wasn't really an option if one wanted to claim Catholicism as one's confessional identity.

Diana L Croissant

Will Biden be lucid enough to know when Divine Judgment has hit him?

jack

Fr. Stika talks of "Government over human rights and the taking of innocent lives..", but presumably this includes war, especially aggressive wars. But as Shakespeare's Henry V says "There never was a King, be his cause ne'er so spotless .. can try it out with all unspotted soldiers". Also the Church specifically says that killing in war under the orders of lawful superiors is not a sin.

Stika seems high selective in his judgements.

Diana L Croissant

The "renewal" must begin in our schools. Parents must be vigilant enough to KNOW what their children are being taught in our schools. Many parents have been and are aware that there is a terrible stranglehold on public education by the very progressive NEA and have, therefore, taken their children out and have home-schooled them or sent them to private or charter schools.

We need a general uprising against the way history, social studies, and even much of English literature is being taught in our public schools. Unfortunately, many of our parents are themselves now uneducated brain washed graduates of public schools. It's going to be a major effort to change the way we thing about public issues. The colleges and universities must also be changed. Do not provide public funds to schools that allow theories to control content.

Ed Lindgren

I was working the crowd outside a local supermarket this last weekend with a brother Knight as we were collecting donations for the annual Knights of Columbus Tootsie Roll fundraiser and we got to talking politics.

Conversation turned to the upcoming election and presidential preferences. Jason told me that he was a conservative Republican, but he wasn’t voting for Trump. I was taken aback by his comment and said to him, using exactly the words that Bishop Stika used, that Harris is "an anti-Catholic bigot.”

Jason never told me in as many words that he was voting for Team Harris/Biden, but I doubt if he is voting for a third-party candidate, so the Democratic ticket is probably his choice.

I cannot understand how any Catholic who seriously practices his/her faith can vote for Team Harris/Biden. These two and their fellow travelers are going to make life very difficult for people of faith.

John Credulous

From GEN-X , Jay gives a calm explanation of Orthodox doctrine:

Both faith and logic:

https://jaysanalysis.com/2020/10/13/apostate-prophet-vs-jay-dyer-does-god-exist-problem-of-evil/

Former Muslim turned atheist skeptic Apostate Prophet asked me to join him to have a cordial exchange on the issue of God’s existence, Theistic arguments and proofs, TAG, logic and the problem evil and theodicy. We had a great exchange and kept it civil, while also being heated!
turcopolier

jack

it must be a "just" war for participation to be without sin.

turcopolier

All
What I object to is politicians claiming to be Catholic while boasting of their disdain for Church teaching. I don't care if they leave. Let them leave.

turcopolier

ked

You simple ass! Do you really think I will document my editorial opinions for you?

TV

Chinese menu doctrine has infested most "mainline" Churches and - surprise - membership is declining.
I was born into the Episcopal Church; I'm no longer an Episcopalian.
Take a look at this:
https://virtueonline.org/how-kill-church-just-few-easy-steps

Fred

Diana,

"Parents must be vigilant enough to KNOW what their children are being taught in our schools."

One of the side effects of the NEA's response to Covid is that many parents are seeing via Zoom just what silliness their kids have been getting exposed to for years. The move for vouchers is going to accelerate over the next few years.

ked

I am indeed a simple ass - I mistook your post as an expression of knowledge of existing Church doctrine, not your wish for what that doctrine ought to be. My apologies.
I cannot support your opinion because I have not seen in history good outcomes when the Church attempts rigorous sanction over matters & during events explicitly secular more than spiritual.

turcopolier

ked

These priests are not trying to run America. What they are doing is trying to purge their church of hypocrites who are free to go away and continue as the hypocrites that they are.

srw

Ed Lindgren
Harris is "an anti-Catholic bigot.” ???
Could you please tell me where you came up with this idea/thought.

turcopolier

srw

She is the only politician that I know of who thinks the "Knights of Columbus" is a dangerous organization.

The Twisted Genius

ked,

Opposition to abortion as a grave evil is openly expressed Roman Catholic Church doctrine. The Church is also opposed to in vitro fertilization, the use of condoms and vasectomies. Execution as a form of criminal punishment is also seen as a grave evil. Using any one of these as a single criteria to accept or reject a political candidate's legislative agenda is not Church doctrine. OTOH, acceptance or toleration of any of these Church teachings does make one a lapsed or fallen Catholic or, as Colonel Lang said, a hypocrite.

turcopolier

TTG

This doesn't seem very clear. Do you mean that you believe that public advocacy of abortion by a politician as being a woman's right is compatible with self-portrayal as Catholic?

The Twisted Genius

pl,

A Catholic politician who advocates for the availability of abortion as a legally available option for a woman and the right to privacy for those women cannot claim to be a sinless Catholic. Nor can a politician who advocates for the availability of birth control including condoms or vasectomies make that claim. Certainly one who advocates for the death penalty cannot call himself a sinless Catholic. But I also believe a Catholic politician who does not advocate for the poor and oppressed among us also lives in a state of sin. They can all still be Catholics, but flawed and sin stained Catholics. Fortunately, all us sinners bask in the light of God’s divine mercy. Without that, we’d be worse than screwed. We’d be damned.

In my opinion, to see the Catholic Church as a church for only the doctrinally perfect is an arrogant view. As the saying goes, we are all sinners and we are all children of God. As for politicians, Catholic and otherwise, we’re left to pick among the weevils. for only the doctrinally perfect is an arrogant view. As the saying goes, we are all sinners and we are all children of God. As for politicians, Catholic and otherwise, we’re left to pick among the weevils.

Cal B

As TTG said, abortion is a grave sin in Catholic moral teaching. The Catholic Church’s position on this has been unequivocal and unyielding. At the same time, given her role in the healing and salvation of souls, the Catholic Church has also had a strong and active role in helping women heal and find forgiveness for their abortion, particularly through the Sacrament of Reconciliation (“Though your sins are like scarlet, I will make them as white as snow. Though they are red like crimson, I will make them as white as wool.” Isa 1:18).

The late Justice Antonin Scalia’s son, Fr. Paul Scalia, says it best: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nKzbZxTMEIA

Catholics and others have also been given real life examples of women who have had an abortion and gone on to lead a lives of Catholic virtue. Most notably, Dorothy Day (Servant of God), who had an abortion at the age of 20 before converting to Catholicism and embracing and defending the Church’s teaching on faith and morals and leading a life in service to Christ. Day’s cause for canonization was advanced by none other than the late John Cardinal O’Connor, one of the greatest pro-life voices in the Catholic Church in America.

The Venerable Fulton Sheen in his audio catechism (1965) mentions a woman he was instructing in faith becoming very upset during discussion of sin and penance. She became angry and hysterical. As Sheen describes it:

“‘Now I'll never join the Church after what I have heard about confessing sin.’ I said to her: ‘There is no proportion whatever between what you have heard and the way you are acting. Have you ever had an abortion?’ She hung her head in shame and admitted that she had. That was the difficulty; it was not the sacrament of Penance. Later on I received her into the Church and baptized her first child.”

Joe Biden needs to publicly condemn abortion, advocate for life, go to the Sacrament of Reconciliation, and spend his days doing works of mercy. Let’s pray for him.


turcopolier

Cal B

My post is altogether about hypocritical politicians who give scandal to the world. It has nothing to do with the possibility of redemption of sinners.

turcopolier

TTG

"to see the Catholic Church as a church for only the doctrinally perfect is an arrogant view." This has nothing to do with "doctrine" and everything about politicians who give public scandal contributing to a general disdain for Catholic hypocrisy. These politicians are free to repent and seek God's ever available forgiveness. We are not Calvinists, believing in the immutability of God's condemnation of sinners, but if the Church has not the will to condemn public scandal, then what is it that we should bother with?

The Twisted Genius

pl,

Your reply to Cal B cleared up the point you are making. Biden's claim to being a devout Catholic while advocating for the available of legal, safe abortions is hypocritical. Much like Barr's claim to being a devout Catholic while advocating for more federal executions in hypocritical. Catholic organizations singling out either of these hypocritical Catholics for praise and awards only adds to this hypocrisy.

Diana L Croissant

A few years ago when I was teaching in a community college, I was assigned to teach the essay writing class that was mandatory for all students. The last essay assigned in those classes is the argumentation essay. Each student must choose a current controversial issue and argue for or against.

One of my students was a young woman who was "slow" mentally, came to class walking with a limp and using a cane. She as many students did, chose as her argumentation paper topic, the question of whether abortion should be legal or should not be legal.

Many chose that question, but I will tell you only her response. She was FOR it. Her argument was that she wouldn't have blamed her mother if her mother had chosen abortion when she was informed that the child she was carrying (the student herself) would be born with severe "problems." She loved her mother and felt terrible about all the trouble she herself had caused her mother simply by being so "challenged" in so many ways.

To my way of thinking, that young woman was herself an argument against abortion.

And I was surprised that very many young women and men also wrote against abortion, for many reasons. None of them chose simply to present a Christian point of view but to explain that since women had fought so hard for the right to have birth control, they should use it instead of getting pregnant in order to try to "catch" a husband and then simply abort the fetus when her plans didn't work out. That was one of the most common points made among many others.

ked

Thanks, TTG & Col.
I found this link to be useful (maybe only to me) background on the issue. My take-away is that dogma - at least it’s interpretation - changes.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12178868/

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