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03 September 2020

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Artemesia

To fracture Poe, I wish you Surcease of sorrow for the lost Molar.

English Outsider


Colonel - as an Englishman I hope very much they don't go. Lots of links, lots of sentimental associations

If I were a Scotsman I'd just do it. No question. It's certainly doable and I'm surprised they haven't done it long since.

Leads to a lot of problems for us in England though. It seems the old dream of a proud independent Scotland is now gone. To be replaced, just as fast as it could be done, by absorption into the European Union.

Who the hell would want that on their doorstep?

Yes, a lot of problems.

.

TV

Scotland is about as economically viable as Quebec - barely marginal.

different clue

I suspect part of the reason many Scots may now favor independence from England is beCAUSE of the passage of Brexit. Rightly or wrongly, they fear being consumed in a Bonfire of the Social Services ( what few still remain) and feel that they might preserve, among other things , a Scottish National Health Service within the borders of an Independent Scotland.

And National Pride must be a big part of it too. So when National Pride and Social-Economic Survivalism both point in the same direction ( Independence from a Brexited England), it will become attractive to a majority of Scots.

Of course I am just guessing as to what the Scots may be thinking and feeling, and why.
Someone who knows can certainly correct me. Hopefully nicely, please . . .

walrus

My son was working in Edinburgh a few years ago teaching sailing. He was walking the main street and noticed some people were glaring at him and spitting on the street as he passed. A friend pointed out he was wearing a Royal yacht club sailing shirt with a crown emblem on it.

His comment over the phone to me was : “dad, don’t tell anyone but the Scots really do hate the English!”.

Similar experience in Ireland.

rho

If the Scots decide to have an independent nation, more power to them.

It will get really interesting if they apply for EU membership (which I think is likely, even though the EU becomes more dysfunctional every day), and then the economic viability arguments will become very relevant, because all existing EU member states will have to agree to taking Free Scotland in as a new member. In some EU member states, this means there will have to be a binding referendum.

And I don't think the populations of many EU net-payer states (with the exception of Germany) will be very keen on taking in another net receiver country.

srw

Grandfather came from Aberdeen Scotland so I should be all for their independence but it's invaluable having your own currency, the Pound, instead of the Euro. When you can't print your own currency you are at the mercy of the entity that does, in the Euro instance, the German influenced European Central Bank. Examples of getting caught abound like the Greece 2009 crisis triggered by the world-wide Great Recession, structural weaknesses in the Greek economy, and lack of monetary policy flexibility as a member of the Eurozone. But on the other hand, if they did vote for independence, they could negotiate an arrangement like Denmark.

Oscar Peterson

Why do you favor independence for Quebec?

Even the Quebecois seem to have reconciled permanently with Anglo-Canadians.

With the myriad of crises going on in the world, what possible benefit could there be in stirring up that issue again?

LondonBob

Yes I am not surprised by this, during the last election the useless politicians who ran the Unionist campaign decided to run a campaign of endless economic threats, I am not sure they made a single positive emotional argument. The end result was the independence vote rose and almost had enough to win, the bigger issue was the union has now been cast as simply an economic relationship, and that is not enough.

As an Englishman I think Scotland has been going its own way for a while, I also object to the more leftist political cultural with its twinge of Presbyterian authoritarianism, so I see the benefits. It is an open question going forward, in a way it never has been before. A new arrangement is needed, I am not sure that full independence is the answer though.

Serge

Sadly all interest in Quebec secession has faded away in the newer generations. My grandparents voted yes in '80 and afterwards said the opportunity would never happen again, both of my parents voted yes in '95(with my grandparents voting no). I am inclined to agree with the opinion of my grandparents, that the opportunity came in '80. Even if '95 had succeeded, we would be seeing a soft brexit-type secession at most that would trail on for decades, to the extreme detriment of Quebec. Quebec just has it too good in the current relationship with anglo Canada. We get a lot more from the relationship than they get from us. And french language/culture is as vital as ever before, as long as you aren't in Montreal you can easily go about your entire life without hearing any english outside of the few classes in secondary school.

turcopolier

james

What has this to do with Scotland?

turcopolier

Oscar Peterson

I have the usual French Canadian dislike of Anglo Canada.

turcopolier

TV

Economic viability is a foolish argument that never impresses a people seeking independence. Economic activity and trade always continue across borders if it is mutually beneficial.

TV

Col:
You've got to have something to trade.
Kilts and oatmeal won't do it.
The biggest piece of the Scot economy is the Brent oil fields that are almost played out.
And then there's the question of debt obligation which would have become one of the big hurdles if Quebec went their own way.
How much UK national debt can be assigned to Scotland?
I understand the emotions here (I've visited Scotland and heard the comments about the English), but decisions made on emotions usually have very bad results.

turcopolier

TV

People often make what you might think bad decisions. leaving the British empire was probably a bad decision for the US at the time it was made.

turcopolier

TV
"Scotland was one of the industrial powerhouses of Europe from the time of the Industrial Revolution onwards, being a world leader in manufacturing.[10] This left a legacy in the diversity of goods and services which Scotland produces, from textiles, whisky and shortbread to jet engines, buses, computer software, ships, avionics and microelectronics, as well as banking, insurance, investment management and other related financial services. In common with most other advanced industrialised economies, Scotland has seen a decline in the importance of both manufacturing industries and primary-based extractive industries. This has, however, been combined with a rise in the service sector of the economy, which has grown to be the largest sector in Scotland." wiki on Scotland

turcopolier

TV
"The economy of Quebec is diversified and post-industrial with an average potential for growth.[4] Manufacturing and service sectors dominate the economy. If Quebec were a country, its economy would be ranked the 44th largest in the world just behind Norway.[5] Quebec is also ranked the 21st largest in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. The economy of Quebec represents 19.65% of the total GDP of Canada.[6]" wiki on The Economy of Quebec.

J

"Of Scotland's King I haud my house, I pay him meat and fee, And I will keep my gude auld house, while my house will keep me."

‘She makes a stir in tower and trench,
That brawling, boisterous, Scottish wench;
Came I early, came I late.
I found Agnes at the gate.’

J

Luke Kelly - Parcel Of Rogues - YES SCOTLAND

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbZH_hH0mp8

turcopolier

james

Bestir yourself and find the answer I made to someone else on Quebec's economy.

Senescal

@Walrus

"My son was working in Edinburgh a few years ago teaching sailing. He was walking the main street and noticed some people were glaring at him and spitting on the street as he passed. A friend pointed out he was wearing a Royal yacht club sailing shirt with a crown emblem on it."

Far be it for me to cast doubt on you or your son, Walrus, but, if this happened, then I am amazed. First of all, most Scots - even those who support independence - are not republicans, nor are they intent on restoring the House of Stewart. Second of all, Edinburgh is one of the last few remaining strongholds of the unionist vote (the only city/region in the country to elect a Labour MP). Thirdly, it has a fairly sizeable English diaspora. Fourthly, the notion that even a noticeable minority of Scots "hate the English" to the extent that they would spit at a (suspected) Englishman in the street is fanciful. And you say this happened on Princess Street? Amazing!

fasteddiez

James, one thing wrong with the idea of Cascadia is the incorporation of the Shiite holes of Portland and Seattle within such an embryonic concoction, otherwise a plausible dream, geographically speaking. But to achieve this, the USA will have to avoid total dissolution, both legally, illegally, and Atilla the Hun style actuality. Of course, I could be totally wrong.

Senescal

I will second James' contribution (via Craig Murray). The current leadership of the Scottish National Party (SNP) has no intention of pursuing independence seriously.

Salmond was the threat and shadowy forces (from within the SNP and from without) have neutralised him for the time being. He's a formidable operator and I wouldn't write him off entirely, but he isn't a young man and, despite being exonerated during his recent travails, he is in a weakened position from which he'll have to regain ground. It is asking a lot, even of him.

Serge

Feel the need to qualify my previous statement here re Quebec independence: I am a strict secessionist, to the quebec masses it may appear that we get far more from the anglos than the other way around but this is a seriously flawed way of thinking. Insidious effects of federal efforts to push anglo mass culture on the quebecois populace are not to be underestimated. A couple decades ago you rarely heard english songs on the radio, there was a strict qota. No longer. It may sound petty, but this is a tiny nation in a sea of anglos and French is a very fragile tongue, prone to corruption.Felix Leclerc said it best
L'Ile d'Orléans
Un dépotoir
Un cimetière
Parcs à vidanges
Boîte à déchets
U. S. parkings
On veut la mettre
En mini-jupe
And speak English
Faire ça à elle
L'Ile d'Orléans
Notre fleur de lys
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Bu8M1fgiFYo

walrus

Senescal,

Thank you for telling me the name of that street, I couldn’t remember, but that was it. No, I couldn’t make it up. The incident happened when he was on what the Germans call kids “wanderjahre”. I only got phone calls from him when he needed more money.

In Ireland he sensibly didn’t wear that shirt after being advised that the boat he was sailing on at Cork week was 100% republican.

He has both Australian and U.K. passports and started work in Palma in the spring, then worked around the Med before going North.

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