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16 September 2020

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Jimmy_W

Babak,
There are some kinds of precedent for an "International City". For example, the Vatican is an ostensibly neutral and supposedly-politically-independent entity. Singapore is another "international city", though probably not "politically-independent".

Switzerland, though not a city, kind of shows the way for several different ethnicities and cultures to come together in a new political entity. (Though it emerged from independent cantons.)

So yes, Jerusalem can be an International City. Israel may have to give it up, however.

turcopolier

Jimmy W

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpus_separatum_(Jerusalem)

BABAK MAKKINEJAD

Jimmy_W

Per your examples, you are suggesting the creation of a sovereign city-state.

Members of which religion would call the shots in that city?

I do not believe either Muslims, or Jews, or Protestant Christians would accept such a thing; even conceptually.

The Orthodox and Catholic Christians may accept it.

turcopolier

Babak

the Muslims seized the city from the Byzantines by force of arms. the Crusaders seized it back after 400 years and held it for a hundred years plus two ten year later tenancy by hudna. The British seized it from the Turks in 1918. The Israelis seized it in 1967. Salah al-Din? dream on.

turcopolier

babak

Are you the real Babak? Surely you know that the UN Partition Resolution of 1947 made the Holy City a corpus separatum to be run by the UN. you said you are enamored of the UN. you don't sound like it.

BABAK MAKKINEJAD

Col. Lang:

The world changes and the dream lives on.

I am stating the way things are...that only war will free Al Quds.

turcopolier

babak

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_city

I thought you loved the UN.

BABAK MAKKINEJAD

Col. Lang

I do not love the UN, nor do I hate it.

I just do not believe that the core religious issues of war over Al Quds can be settled in any other way.

In any case, none of the antagonists will settle for an International City; a rational approach. But if people were rational, we would not have been in this state in Palestine in any case.

Hudna is the most practical way forward - but WASPS and Jews will not accept it; in my opinion.

different clue

Babak Makkinejad,

If an ISIS 2.0 arises and takes Al Quds by war and rules it according to its own belief in ISISlam, would that make Al Quds a free city?

Offtrail

Larry, the "Arab Street" is not involved in this. The UAE and Bahrain have hardly any Arabs. Of their combined population of 10.4 million, only two million are citizens. The others are guest workers.

It's doubtful that this represents a sea change in how the Arab public views Israel.

We'll see if MBS follows suit in Saudi Arabia. If he does he's probably not long for the throne.

turcopolier

offtrail

Having held a residency in Dubai, I can assure you that the expat worker population of the UAE and Bahrein is completely inert politically and only there for the money. It's the locals who matter.

BABAK MAKKINEJAD

different clue

Such an event would widely be welcomed by Ummah; Al Quds having been freed from the clutches of infidels.

There would be jubilation across the Muslim World and it will make ISIS a potent political & religious force.

It will weaken Iran - marginally - and Turkey & Ikhwan materially - and thoroughly route the post-colonial regimes among Arabs.

It is debatable if Jordan, Sudan, and Egypt would survive as their populations would flock to the banner of the modern-day Salah Al Din (during the Great Patriotic War, the memory of Marshall Kutozov was on the minds of many a Russian.)

It would make Salafi Islam the dominant form of Islam for decades, if not centuries.

But that is now all academic; just like Saddam Hussein who lacked the vision of conquering Saudi Arabia and was hoping to be left alone with Kuwait; ISIS lacked the vision to take its war to Israel - rather than the Shia and their affiliates. Her paymasters did not wish it to harm Israel, but Iran and the Shia.

different clue

Babak Makkinejad,

So an ISIS 2.0 treating people the same way as ISIS 1.0 treated/treats people would be a welcome liberator in the eyes of the Muslim peoples? Interesting . . .

I had always considered ISIS to have hidden engineers rather than paymasters. I had considered, and still suspect, ISIS to be largely a visible containment dome hiding a core
of still-disgruntled Baathists and ex-Baathists . . . including the whole Baathist intelligence and secret police apparatus.

If ISIS in fact had paymasters, who were those paymasters?

Serge

different clue,

In Iraq, some sunni arab populations lived better lives under ISIS than they lived under Maliki's government, and others clearly derived direct benefit from ISIS policies. And there was nothing antithetical or unislamic about the ISIS way of life to these people, ISIS laws are the exact same social policies that you would find in a gulf country or any other conservative islamic society. In 2014-2015 sunni Iraqis were flocking back to ISIS territory from government areas. The populations that formed the core of ISIS rule in Syria were always anti government smugglers who were themselves the core of certain cadres of the ISIS predecessor,the Islamic State of Iraq, in the 2000s. Baathist officers did form an important core of ISI and then ISIS, but their importance is often overstated. The core of ISIS are simply sunni veterans of the 2000s iraq war, of all stripes, not necessarily baathists. Saddam did however pave the way for all this with his Faith Campaign in the 90s.
Regarding the paymasters comment, I have always stated this since 2014: ISIS is arguably the only independent faction in the whole iraq/syrian conflict. No state actor ever directly supported them, although there were many influential private citizens(from the gulf) that did, to reap the benefits of supporting jihad in the afterlife. Just like ISI in the 2000s or afghanistan before that. Some sides like the Turks abetted them when faced with the reality of kurdish supremacy, a case of the near/far enemy. But no direct support, although they certainly diverted/siphoned millions of obama's indirect support to the rebels over periods of years.

Babak makkinejad

Serge

When asked "Why are you not fighting Israel?", the captured jihadists in Syria often replied: "We were not ordered to do so."

I surmised that Shia were worse than Jew.

One member of a captured ISIS team on a mission to Iran, said, during interrogation, "Why is Iran interfering with us getting ourselves slave girls?"

English Outsider


Looks like some nonsense cobbled together to keep the Evangelicals/Christian Zionist voters in hand for the next Presidential election. In the meantime a license for more slow motion ethnic cleansing one olive grove at a time.

That it can be discussed as a serious proposition is disturbing.

Serge

Babak,
It is not difficult to see why salafis would rather see the Jews in control of al Quds, than to see twelver self-flagellation rituals in the streets of the city and husseinyahs in the public squares(as you see them today in Damascus and Baghdad-cities considered bastions of sunnism from the salafi-nationalistic point of view that ISIS and other groups subscribe to).
I would give short shrift to most televised interrogations of captured ISIS members. There are some good ones in the mix . But 95% are staged propaganda productions.

turcopolier

Babak

I will match your fantasy with another. We will raise an international army of crusaders to fight you OR the Jews for Jerusalem.

BABAK MAKKINEJAD

Col. Lang:

Israelis invaded Lebanon in 1982 and conquered that country.

In 2020 they find themselves in a M.A.D. situation with Lebanon.

And whom do you mean by "We"?

Not the Catholic Church - no such Declaration of Crusade if forthcoming.

The United States? She already owns that bear - she has conquered Palestine through her proxy forces, a.k.a. IDF.

turcopolier

babak

You seem to have lost your sense of humor. I said it was a fantasy.

wtofd

Babak, UN sovereignty over the Old City. If Israel insists on control of the Jewish Quarter, so be it. Yes, I know this is a pipedream.

Babak makkinejad

Col. Lang

Yes. You could be right.

J

I have wonder how this and any other 'peace deal' will play when Israel's government decides to re-build the Temple of Solomon. That will really create a firestorm.

Could that be the match that strikes the fire that 1st Thessalonians 5 is referring to peace and then sudden destruction in the Day of the Lord?

Can you imagine the level of blood up the bridle of a horse spilled for 180 miles (the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs) spoken in Revelations 14:20.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+14%3A20&version=KJV

J

Third Arab nation to reach peace agreement with Israel in next 2 days: US envoy

https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/third-arab-nation-to-reach-peace-agreement-with-israel-in-next-2-days-us-envoy/

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