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17 September 2020

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eakens

Regardless of whether China create this or not, the fact of the matter is it was supposedly unsafe to attend a loved ones funeral, birth of a child, etc.....but it was OK to go out and protest.

Those two facts are really the only ones you need to know...

Fred

Col.,

The Chinese propaganda campaign has lots of allies in their war against Trump and the resurgence of the West. I'm only mildly surprised the same crew who was out in March and April waring us all of another Black Death and a need for mandatory economy closures haven't returned to double down. Back then there were multiple stories, mostly quickly shunted asside in favor of ratings boosting death counts, indicating this might have come from China's virology lab. The shift to the martyrdom of George Floyd and the resurection of the '60s Black Power movement shoved most of the remaining coverage of this aside. Googel and Twitter have been rather adept in imposing one sided censorship and Facebook is coming along due to the pressure from the left. I notice none on the left ever mention the crushing of Hong Kong's pro-democracy movement or even the Uighur reeducation camps.

akaPatience

Take it FWIW, but the Redstate blog has a provocative item which opines it's possible that Dr. Li-Ming Yan may be a CCP agent whose real intention is to stoke continuing fear of COVID-19, especially now that the public is relaxing somewhat due to lower death rates, etc. (BTW this is just my succinct synopsis of the essay and maybe I interpreted it incorrectly). The author seems to think it's significant and telling that the doctor seemed insufficiently afraid for her life in the TV interview with TC the other night.

I occasionally find Asians to be relatively inscrutable when it comes to the manner in which they express themselves, so I don't put much stock in that aspect of his theory. Besides, she's been in the US since April and is still alive.

Any motives aside, she's making assertions that already have and probably will continue to be either refuted or proved by her peers. I wonder though, would a scientist risk professional standing by making totally unsupported or false claims? I guess if she were truly a CCP agent it's possible.

Who knows who or what to believe anymore?

akaPatience

Oops, here's the Redstate link for anyone interested:

https://www.redstate.com/michael_thau/2020/09/17/920958/

turcopolier

akaPatience
So, by this tortured logic she is a CCP agent. If you believe that, you, too, are a sick f--k.

turcopolier

All

As I expected, the apologists for communism and for the CCP specifically have come howling out of the woodwork.

Danny Nicolas

Related: https://swprs.org/covid-19-virus-origin-the-mojiang-miners-passage-hypothesis/

>[i]It has been known since February that a bat virus called RaTG13, collected by the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) in 2013, is the closest known relative of SARS-CoV-2.

>It has been known since May (to some) that RaTG13, previously known as BtCoV/4991, was found in bat feces in a mineshaft near Mojiang in southwest China, after six miners fell ill with Covid19-like pneumonia and three of them eventually died.

...
>Latham and Wilson now propose that the Mojiang miners were originally infected by RaTG13 and/or similar coronaviruses during their up to two week stay in the mineshaft inhaling aerosols from bat feces. RaTG13 then turned into SARS-CoV-2 through mutations and/or recombinations in the lungs of the miners during their up to four month stay in the hospital (the Mojiang miners passage).

>Thus the infected lungs of the miners may have served as a ‘human incubator’ enabling RaTG13 to adapt to both the human ACE2 cell receptor and the human immune system in just four months instead of several decades as would have been expected in a natural (animal) environment.

>The Wuhan Institute of Virology in 2012/2013 received tissue and blood samples of the surviving or dead miners that may already have included what is now known as SARS-CoV-2. WIV virologists may then have been waiting five more years, until the completion of their BSL-4 (high security) lab in 2018, before beginning to do research on what is now known as SARS-CoV-2.

>SARS-CoV-2 may then have escaped, probably in autumn 2019, from the WIV BSL-4 lab, perhaps through an infected lab worker, initiating what is now a global coronavirus pandemic.[/i]


Note that at the same time, this lab was doing gain of function work on SARS-like bat viruses. They may have been trying to weaponize it. They may have been trying to make a general cold or SARS vaccine. They may have released mild version A on their own political dissidents and the general population in wuhan while keeping versions B-Z for each year to wreck havoc.

Yeah, Right

akaPatience: "I wonder though, would a scientist risk professional standing by making totally unsupported or false claims?"

She no longer has any professional standing to put at risk, not since she hitched her star to the "Law and Order Society & Law and Order Foundation".

Whatever else that may be, it most definitely is not a scientific institution.

She's now in Steve Bannon's world. I wish her luck, because I doubt that's a spiritually-rewarding place to find yourself.

Yeah, Right

blue peacock: "These are serious allegations."

Absolutely true. Extremely serious.

"The US government and its bio-weapons apparatus should investigate it seriously."

Again, absolutely true. They would be remiss in their duty if they did not.

"Lee-meng Yan says that a bat virus was modified. She's rather specific it would seem."

Apparently so.

I have been trained in the biological sciences, but I do not pretend to be a virologist. So much of her paper flies over my head. I do not claim that I understand the underlying genetics.

But there are many examples in that article (I won't bore people, but I can itemize them if you want) where the authors describe some part of the structure of the virus only to *then* make an apparently unsupported assertion based upon that observation.

In effect, in many places within their paper they take leaps of logic.

Those logic-leaps would certainly have not survived a peer-review process, which I suggest is a big reason why it was uploaded to an open-source repository.

I'm not saying that its rubbish.
But I am doubtful that it is "science".

Balint Somkuti, PhD

Sir,

if so then it is a reposte in the vein of Sun Tze. Not nice or legal or whatever, but is something only short of a declaration of war.

Great power games are unfortunately like this.

But I have my doubts as I have seen too many false flag ops, and it the virologist claims can be verified PRC has much more to lose, than it can win with it.

Fred

akaPatience,

The Mayor of Tampa and her staff are unlikely to be RedState blog readers. They are quite happy to demand that all the surrounding counties issue mandatory mask policies because 'cases' and people might travel to Tampa from outside. The same goes with Nashville, where the Mayor is quite happy to suppress evidence that going to a bar doesn't escalate the spread of the virus. Both Mayors are quite accepting of violating all those rules when coming together to condemn the US.

"would a scientist risk professional standing by making totally unsupported or false claims?"
Let's review what Dr. St. Fauci said Febraury, March, May, and now. Lets see his conduct when he attends a sporting event, mask free, side by side with others. Looks like his professional standing with professional politicians on the left has only been enhanced. How's the Imperial College algorithm man doing? Are any "professionals" worrying about that or the Washington State model or any others? Nope. The only "science" that matters now is political science, and rank opportunism. 15 days to slow the spread now entering month seven. 60% of small businesses declared non-essential and ordered closed by democratic governors are now permanently closed. Congradulations to Democratic Socialism for destroying the financial independence of numerous Americans who were unlikely to ever support your party.
https://nashville.eater.com/2020/5/21/21266317/nashville-restaurant-closings-coronavirus-2020-mewsic-kitty-cat-cafe-closed
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/16/yelp-data-shows-60percent-of-business-closures-due-to-the-coronavirus-pandemic-are-now-permanent.html

"Rejoice, we conquer" should be Biden's campaign slogan since that appears to be what they plan on doing to America.

turcopolier

Yeah, right Saying that someone is a communist, or a communist sympathizer is not an ad hominem attack. It is merely a description of what I think you are. Are you not proud of what you are? It is like calling someone a Yankee. This describes someone from the North. They do not like to be called that either although it is a simple descriptor.

Martin Oline

All:
I try and be original and otherwise keep my big mouth shut, but I feel this is an important topic. Please accept my apologies, Colonel for not being original, but I will paste this comment from another site which more closely deals with my concerns and gets to the heart of the matter. This is not a lot of technical jargon, such as some have posted, but poses a rather simple question, was this virus manipulated to speed up it's mutation?:

"Re Bannon and allegations of engineered Covid: Well, yes, the source casts a big black pall over the allegations. But is there any truth here nonetheless?

I believe it was back in June that Bret Weinstein appeared on Joe Rogan’s podcast and said much the same. He explained that Covid probably did originate with bats. But typically viruses from animals need to evolve extensively before they can infect human beings. And then transmission occurs exclusively between animals and people for a very long time before the virus evolves again to enable it to transmit from one human being to another.

It’s this latter crucial and quite lengthy step that Covid-19 entirely skipped over, indicating that it was engineered, Weinstein says. So yes, there’s no smoking gun to indicate that the Wuhan bio-weapons lab was the origin. But the evidence of the virus itself and the extremely unlikely scenario that it evolved overnight for human-to-human transmission is strongly suggestive, is it not?

Also, what about those very early reports from Chinese scientists that cited the Wuhan lab? Didn’t some of those guys disappear? Finally, Steve Bannon certainly has deep dark motives for casting a blanket of suspicion over China. No doubt. But don’t the Wuhan-lab-origin deniers have motives of their own — such as preserving US corporate investments and business in China while smoothing the runway for Biden’s election and further US sellouts to China? Come on, man."

Diana Croissant

The Halabja chemical attack against the Kurds, in my mind, is proof that Hussein did have weapons of mass destruction--though not the kind some here are writing about.

Chemicals or lab-produced viruses may not be the kinds of weapons most people think of; but when chemicals and or viruses are used deliberately to cause harm and chaos, they are weapons.

Communist regimes may even use their "useful idiots" as the means by which they deliver those WMDs.

Why did the President decide to close the borders against the possible arrival of people from China?

ponderer

@Personanongrata

Your proof is proof by deduction, which makes it as failure prone as all human endeavors. One need not be a virologists to examine the flaws in your cited work.

"Engineering such a virus would have required 1) published or otherwise available scientific knowledge that did not exist until after COVID-19 recognition;"
This statement is false on its face. Do governments regularly publish their bioweapons research? If so can such research not exists because it hasn't been published?

"2) a failure to follow obvious engineering pathways, resulting in an imperfectly constructed virus; and "
It doesn't look like anything we've seen before and not how we would make it so it must be made by nature...

"3) an ability to genetically engineer a new virus without leaving fingerprints of the engineering. Furthermore, the 12 amino acid furin-cleavage site insertion between the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein’s S1 and S2 domains, which some have alleged to be a sign of genetic engineering, is found in other bat and human coronaviruses in nature, probably arising via naturally occurring recombination.24"

More, because we can't think of a way to do it, it must not be possible.

Normally to catch a lie you would look to see who benefits and approach from that angle. Is there any reason for the virology community to *want* COVID to be a naturally occurring virus? Of course, research money. Imagine the outrage if a man made virus were released, like an accidental nuclear launch, it would undoubtedly be followed by a backlash that would severely affect funding, not to mention the international slush funding enjoyed by so many. We have every reason to believe the lab in Wuhan is at least in part funded by the US Government grants. Besides all the other issues with that lab, you can expect that to be cut right out if a virus were released or escaped from there, ergo it's a naturally occurring virus.

Most than likely all the major powers are pursuing research in this area (it would be irresponsible not to if only from a defense stand point). Most likely, all researches have a incentive to keep the pubic in the dark just as much as the governments do. That's jut on a normal virus. COVID-19, the virus used to shut down, destroy the US economy; That makes face masked rioters a "health" priority and gives the Democrats about their only ammunition in their prolific attacks against Trump. That's the kind of stuff that destroys careers. What would the average voter thing of a person or party who took Chinese money while they were releasing a world wide pandemic? This is one of the issues where everyone has a vested interest in the outcome so we may never know the truth.

blue peacock

Yeah Right,

"Science" is not infallible. This cult-like adherence to justifying one's position stating that it is based on science is the new deflection.

Many governors and Biden keep justifying the use of "science" for the lockdowns and the reopening plan. The fact is the "Scientists" got it all wrong with their projections of deaths. Their models were incorrect. The fact is no one really knows the origins of the virus, how it spreads and infects and debilitates humans at a level of detailed consistent explanation. I've read reports of cases rising at universities but no one hospitalized. Then there are leaked emails of the mayor of Nashville ordering suppression of data showing minimal infection from bars & restaurants to justify the destruction of all those small businesses. I recall the mantra two more weeks to flatten the curve. We need to lockdown to avoid overwhelming hospitals. Then it became we need to continue destroying small businesses because cases are rising but now ignoring that hospitals remain practically empty. There is so much diversity of opinion among scientists too. The bottom line is that large parts of the world economy have been destroyed due to the nebulous "science".

Whatever the case may be. This virus originated in China. The CCP needs to be held accountable. The best approach is decoupling. Moving supply chains out of China. IMO, the CCP's main vulnerability is in its financial system.

turcopolier

Diana Croissant

The Halabja incident occurred during the Iran-Iraq War. By the time of the US invasion of the country in 2003 they did not. The US and friends had stripped the country of that capability through inspections and destruction of surrendered materiel. See "Drinking the Koolaid."

Deap

Reminder, the "flatten the curve" argument was never offered as a cure or even a case number reduction.

It merely projected the same number of cases, but over a longer period of time so as to allegedly not overwhelm any health care facilities, per the flawed Italian model that really had to relevance to the numbers and response capacity of US health care facilities.

Covid became the global equivalent of the childhood "telephone game" where the original message got distorted beyond belief, once it passed though many hands for any number of ulterior purposes.

Considering the economic impact, the human costs and disruption to the entire world, we still do not even know the most basic information about this condition.

And by now we should, but it was exploited early and often for such political gain that someone like Biden can make his outrageous statements yesterday and not get one murmur of pushback. There is your biggest clue about "covid".

The biggest takeaway is "big government" solves nothing and often makes things worse. Don't put any money or votes on more big government. CDC and NIH proved they are not far removed from the former incompetence of the VA health care delivery system.

If only there was a way to actually audit all the massive government agencies for their mission and investment value, but they are so vast and murky all they do is suck out tax dollars and leave us with the current mess we are in today with their mixed messaging, and total failure to competently gather data and plot a coherent response forward.

US "big government" has been exposed as a total fail. Glad we were at least able to win WWII, but that coordinated model had a very short shelf life. Nor did states pick up the slack. Perhaps, the message of this moment still remains buried and can only join the ranks of the Great Tulip Bubble, the South Seas Bubble and the Albanian Ponzi Scheme.

Things like this just happen - somehow at some level the "world" knew it needed a breather, a time out, a resetting of a values system careening out of control. Just like all prior wars offered in the past. Some sort of psychic catharsis at great human cost.

But the more I observe the more I conclude, this was never really about "covid". I will leave it at that. And let the historical winners write the final chapters long after I will be gone. 'Covid" is now a bell that cannot be unrung.

BABAK MAKKINEJAD

ponderer

A commentator on this forum whose name escapes me at the moment observed several months ago that the best way to breed pathogens is to infect ferrets and then select for the desired attributed; no application of gene splicing or CRISPR would be needed here.

In an interview in Persian, an expert virologist stated: "Welcome to biological warfare." although she also stated that she had no evidence.

walrus

Massachusetts population: 6.893 million.

Covid cases: 126,000

Deaths: 9260

Victoria, Australia, population: 6.651 million.

Covid cases: 20,012

Deaths : 750.

I’ll take the scientific approach with a side order of lockdowns thank you.

turcopolier

walrus

Come on! Australia is a hell of a lot more spread out in its population than Massachusetts.

walrus

Col. Lang,

Melbourne (pop. 4968000) is bigger than Los Angeles (pop. 4015940). Most of Australia’s population is concentrated in a few big cities.

LJ

@Travis (second post)

This virologist verifies what has been published before -- the virus has been altered through "gain of function" research to alter a bat virus to uniquely attack humans. I do not know how she would know that the CCP authorized this attack. I recall that this research was backed by the CDC. I suspect she is being used to further other agendas -- or at least the possibility must be considered.

Les

The Nature articles espousing the theory that the virus naturally evolved has been attacked by Trump defenders for the authors' links to Chinese government-funded research just as the article posted today also has obvious problems of being biased research sponsored by political groups.

The Hong Kong researcher also loses a lot of credibility when she tries to claim the bioweapon theory as fact. It is viable, but quite weak for the obvious reasons of lack of lethality, poor transmission in open air, and rapid weakening of the virus strain.

A.I.S.

I regard the following 4 part series as a reasonable source:

https://quillette.com/category/covid-19/china-syndrome-series/

Summary:

I regard a chinese engineered hand as unlikely. So does the author. I do have a background in theoretical Biophysics, including mathematical modelling on epidemics (I was constantly wondering if the "authorities" were looking at drastically different data sets then I was/am, and as why they werent doing things by the book like Vietnam, South Korea et al.).
Essentially, my view is that Covid emerged when RaTG13-CoV (a virus that usually infects bats) infected a Pangolin, which was already infected with Pangolin Coronavirus. Recombination happened, and RaTG13-CoV picked up a corona virus spike protein. Due to some rotten luck, this resulted in being capable of efficiently infecting humans.
Viral recombination is how new viruses emerge in nature. While this is rare, there are a lot of viruses right now that recombine and fail.

If you look at the ratio between nucleotide changes and amino acid changes (combinations of 3 nucleotides code for 1 amino acid, there are 64 possible nucleotide combinations, of which 61 encode amino acids, and 20ish amino acids in most case so you can have nucleotide changes without amino acid changes) between covids closest known relative and covid also look natural, although an artificially enginnered virus can be made to look natural.

Another reason why I think a zoonitic spillover is likely is that the Chinese performed serological tests for antibodies against bat coronavirus in 2018 and 2019 before corona flared up, and found seroprevalence of anti bat covid antibodies of up to 3% in some rural areas. Antibodies to bat covid viruses wane fairly quickly, so this is a signficiant percentage.
This research was done quite publically, as an attempt to understand and rate possible threats from zoonitic coronaviruses. If this was part of the bioweapon research thing, the Chinese would not have published this in public databases.
To quote the author:
"
Hundreds of millions of people live in rural China, so every year millions of people are probably infected by bat coronaviruses. The overwhelming majority of those infections never result in a pandemic because those viruses are not very good at infecting humans and/or the people who are infected never transmit them to someone else because they live in low-density areas. (Even with SARS-CoV-2, which is quite good at infecting humans and for which most cases are located in densely populated areas, the vast majority of infections are a dead-end.) However, if a person contracts a bat coronavirus that has mutated to become particularly efficient at infecting humans, and if that person then travels to a densely populated area while contagious, then you have a pandemic. Of course, such a chain of events is evidently very unlikely or we’d be dealing with pandemics all the time. But if millions of people are infected by bat coronaviruses every year in China, then outbreaks will inevitably occur from time to time. This has been made significantly more likely by economic development and urbanisation, both of which have led to human encroachment on the habitat of bats and increased circulation between rural and urban areas."

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