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25 September 2020

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Mark K Logan

Jersey,

Are you defending Trump's plans to contest the results of this election?

turcopolier

Mark K Logan

Trump, or anyone else, has every right to contest the result of any election in the courts.

Mark K Logan

Turcoplier,

No argument, everybody has that right. Trump stating that he will do so for any result other than his winning was unwise.

JM Gavin

Mark Logan,
As COL Lang writes, Trump has the right to contest the election.

As I wrote before, Trump doesn't command the blind support of the Executive Branch. If Trump loses the election, he is no longer the President. If he is no longer the President, he will be out of the Oval Office. No one in the Executive Branch will help him remain in power if he is no longer the President. The idea that Trump can somehow refuse to leave office and thereby keep power is indeed just lefty noise.

I work within the Executive Branch. The Executive Branch isn't the Trump Branch. If anything, most of the Executive Branch is very anti-Trump. I am not "anti" or "pro," I work for the Executive Branch. If Trump loses, I still work for the Chief Executive (just a different Chief Executive).

JMG


Keith Harbaugh

One author saw this coming: Patrick J. Buchanan.
See, in particular, the Chapters 4 of
"The Death of the West: How Dying Populations and Immigrant Invasions Imperil Our Country and Civilization" (2001), and
"Suicide of a Superpower: Will America Survive to 2025?" (2011).
Both are available quite inexpensively as ebooks.
Since Buchanan saw so accurately what was coming, his analysis of WHY it was coming deserves attention, at least.

The three key questions are:
What, Who, and Why.
There is a "what" that the talking classes are systematically ignoring.
Consider the fertility rate for white women.
The last figures I saw for this was around 1.7 offspring per white woman.
Taking males into account, that means that for every adult in the current generation, there will be
.85 in the next generation.
There is a name and an analysis for this: it's called "exponential decay."

When the media talks about this as a problem, they only talk about how that means there will fewer workers to pay the taxes to support an aging population, thus they use it as an excuse to shill for something they truly love, yet more non-white immigration.
They ignore, maybe because they don't consider it a problem, the inevitable result of that exponential decay (if it continues at the current rate): white extinction.
Note also how they have demonized the quite accurate phrase "The Great Replacement."

The Twisted Genius

Eliot,

You ask if I "see a country that has not fundamentally changed" earlier today. This country has been in a constant state of change for over 300 years. What we agree on and disagree on has shifted over time bringing great and small social upheavals. We've had rebellions and a catastrophic civil war. What we're experiencing now is less violent that we had in the 60s and 70s as blue peacock pointed out. We had scores dead and many city blocks burnt down in those riots. Now we have one or two dead every now and then and a far smaller amount of buildings burnt. Even crime has gone way down since those days. This summer's uptick in murders in cities is still far less than it was ten years ago. The different lies in the 24 hour news and social media amplification of these events along with the proliferation of absolute bullshit lies and propaganda masquerading as facts and news.

As Colonel Lang lamented, there are visible changes along I-95 in Virginia. Richmond has witnessed the disappearance of almost all monuments to the Confederacy. The remaining Lee monument has been appropriated and "contextualized" by BLM and the mostly black residents of central Richmond. This was foreseen by the editor of a black newspaper when that monument was erected. He stated something to the effect that it was the black man who built this monument and it will be the black man who takes it down.

The UDC wisely took down the Appomattox monument in old town Alexandria before it could suffer a similar ignominious fate. Its smaller size and location made it particularly vulnerable to vandalism. It was a monument erected by former local soldiers as a tribute to their fallen comrades. It certainly wasn't erected as a glorification of the Confederacy. I always saw it as an anti-war monument, a soldiers' tribute to their brethren dutifully sacrificed to the folly of war.

TV

blue peacock
I lived thru the 60's and early 70's.
It's actually scary now.
One difference is that the "ruling class" and it's bureaucracy feels seriously threatened and will do ANYTHING (including destroying our history and culture) to preserve its power and self-enrichment.
During the VN war, they only disagreed about the level of the communist threat and how to counter it.
Big difference between then and now is that state and local governments didn't give in to the mob, much less openly collude.

turcopolier

TTG

Yes, you do not "lament" the lost Virginia. "the land of song," the land for which "Virginia is for lovers" was an appropriate license plate tag. Even though she was still in rags from "the burning" in the late 50s when I first knew her, she was beautiful. But, you have lived here in the hope of the coming of "East California." I suppose the real estate values were favorable. You should press for a name change at that VA clinic at Richmond where you are treated so well. After all, he was a bad man. Talk to Northam about it. He might want treatment there.

akaPatience

Andrew Busch's essay is thought provoking, to be sure. Only a fool would think it's inconceivable that the US as we know it couldn't fall apart. A few random thoughts though:

Prof. Busch characterizes Trump as failing to build bridges and worse, that he's someone who burns them by "pouring gasoline" on political fires. I'd like to know WHO on earth on the other side has offered to build bridges? Does the professor discount the abuse of power employed by the Obama administration et al to not only thwart him but frame him and some of his subordinates??? The Left and their kindred spirits among entrenched Beltway Bubble dwellers have resented him and tried to destroy him FROM THE GET-GO. This has caused me to stop disliking his self-aggrandizing arrogance. Since he's not getting any credit for notable accomplishments, he deserves to brag. Anyway, the professor must not realize that a large part of Trump's appeal is that he delights in trolling his opponents with little if any mercy, like a cat toying with its prey. They're all aflutter now with the crisis du jour: that he'll refuse to step down if he loses. It's exasperating at times but still laughable to see and hear them chatter hysterically ad nauseam.

If BLM and Antifa organizers have to transport rioters from city to city, could that indicate there aren't as many of them as feared? I realize some who move around serve as trainers, but still. The violent rioters, many of whom have criminal records, are a far cry from suburban Millennials who truly do march peacefully on occasion. I've yet to see thousands of violent rioters at any one time. At most I've seen what looks like crowds in the hundreds (I'm referring to violent rioters but admittedly, I'm not sure if I've been privy to the whole picture).

Will suburban Millennials leave their comfort zones en masse to take up arms if Trump wins?

Can CA successfully secede if its water supply from other states is reduced or cut off?


Deap

Good question - compare the 1960's to now - from one's own living history:

Both had existential survival at stake. Actual lives of young people drafted to go to Vietnam in the 1960's. This time it is primarily the deep state that feels the existential threat after Trump was elected and this existential drama is getting played out in perverse ways.

Anti-war, hippies, marches and levitating the Pentagon was one side of the 1960s- and the other was the eruption of civil rights and human inequities that we could no longer ignore as a Nation -as the American Dream..

Critical numbers now in both eras found the draft, and Trump, so odious they want to throw themselves against the cogs of the machine and grind it to a halt. (Paraphrase 1960's Mario Savio). Both - the riots and the outrage was real, but also removed mostly from mainstream lives.

Media is more omnipresent today, than the three channel nightly news of the 1960's. This radically changes our perceptions of current events. We could shut off the TV at night and sleep soundly. We are now wired 24/7 and choose to be in the middle of it. Even though it we shut it off, most of our daily lives are also untouched byt the riots and protests just as in the 1960's

But also out of the 1960's and still appropriate today was the phrase: if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. But whose solution? Who defines the problem. The war and race relations were the problem in the 1960's .

But now the problems seem out of context and contrived in comparison - when basically life in the US was becoming better for most people every day - that is the dislocation - what happened - besides this being an election year? Besides covid.

Why did this all start after Nancy Pelosi tore up Trump's SOTU address - why did every one of his accomplishments get called a lie and attacked, and torn asunder after the SOTU? There was no one bright line that set everything off in the 1960s' - it came more as a wave. But this was an abrupt on and off switch - SOTU forward to November 2020.

Out of the 1960's, long-discredited and disliked Richard Nixon found his moment and roared into two victories on the backs of the Silent Majority. That is the known unknown - does the Silent Majority have sufficient numbers or are they silent because there are fewer of them. Was taking down Nixon the first rumblings of what became the deep state?

Or was Nixon our last link to an institution that we through was still moral and honest, and then we saw it shattered, even though corruption in government long existed - but this time if was in our faces on TV and media everywhere. We were glued to the Watergate hearings in the early 1970's - getting a real politik lesson in civics. Just like today - civics lessons abound.

Could our President really lie to us ,we has to ask in the 1960's? Pretty naive question today. Yet seeing the "American Dream" --- you can be whatever you want to be --- now out of reach for so many who thought they were playing by the rules is another shattered institution today.

Did this American Dream also lie to today's generation. But in the 1960's we finally had to accept yes, our President did lie to us. Will this generation finally accept the cultural lies they were fed? And that everyone does have to find their own way in the world afterall, with the best tools one can put together.

One major difference in these decades is in race relations - out of the 1960's Jim Crow was still alive and well in the deep south, and defacto segregation in the north -we have come a long way in both social movement and wealth access in this regard. We very much are a people of color nation, at every demographic level today. In the 1960's, segregation was real and the gulf between races was real that rarely had common grounds or crossing points.

One other confounding aspect - wide spread recreational drug use was just beginning, and now its more general acceptance has rotted the core of many communities. Worse than alcohol? Worse than Prohibition? Maybe so, maybe not. Same dropouts, different substances.

The irony is we are still talking about recent deaths of black men as race crimes, when each of them had strong drug connections that set things off. Why aren't we talking about this instead of seeing them only as racial tinderboxes?

There often was religion in peoples lives for both community and moral bedrock in the 1960's - that is no longer the case. Life is coarser today- degeneration of values, language and manners. A cynicism about prior institutional religions , but an uncritical embrace of new false gods - like "experts". junk science, the environment and magic wand diets and supplements. Shows mortality remains a huge focus - whether choosing religion for succor; or some fad or guru for a transitory sense of transcendent power of life over death.

But coming to grips with mortality is the same Big Issue for both generations - now and then. And yes, The Atomic Bomb was our mortality threat made manifest in the 1960s. Can't quite get my own head around the "climate change" threat claimed by today's generation - or is "climate change" just a surrogate for the same existential mortality issues that now a non-religious generation is asked to also face?

God and Country did bind sufficient numbers together in the 1960's to make us think we were a nation of shared values, even if in fact we were seriously more socially apart - now social lives and morees are more fluid, but with a great deal of human carnage that came with the breakdown of the nuclear family structure. Solo parents (now) vs shot-gun marriages (then). Toss up.

I really can't say which era had it worse - but what is going on today is maybe more insidious because it feels more artificial. I think we fell into real generational breaking points in the 1960s', race and Vietnam. Both broke the ties that we thought had bound us. Today, I think we are in ginned up breaking points today, mainly for partisan political gain and that is a cheap shot. Today it seems there is more emphasis on separation, blame, resentment, division and anger. Before we claimed we wanted peace and love.

I always come back to this but I do believe a major difference is government employees were not unionized in the 1960's. (JFK unionized government employees) 44 million government employees within our country today are unionized and that makes everything about who runs our "government" today existential for a very large organized and networked group of people, as well as their spouses, children, family and friends.

That is a very powerful new block of people in this country that did not exist in the 1960's with a very private investment in the control of our public government. And they now have the means to control government, outside of the will of the voters at large. That is a fundamental division that did not exist in the 1960's.

However, one pundit suggested a more conservative Supreme Court will in fact bring us together, because we will all have to go back to the basics - what does our shared constitution actually say. Not the flights of fancy imposed by partisan activist judges who remake our contract together at whim and will.

1960's - Warren activist court - 2020 - Trump strict constructionist court.
1960's - government civil service 2020 - unionized government employees
1960's - discreet media with controls- 2020- 24/7 media with no controls

I started out thinking the 1960's were worse; but I backed down from my own arguments as I rambled forth. Both are pivotal eras. Both demand choices.

Kevin Watson (prefer ‘Porkupine’)

Patience:

Correct on everything.

The Colorado River water is not absolutely essential for California. Another answer might be that the flow or the River would not be altered based on politics (just as availability of field labor would not).

Porkupine

PRC90

Keith Harbaugh, both books are on line at archive.org

Naturally, some people became very distressed:
https://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/27/business/media/with-book-buchanan-set-his-fate.html

Fred

TTG,

"It was a monument erected by former local soldiers as a tribute to their fallen comrades. "

We had multiple national vigils in "tribute to" George Floyd, now ongoing tributes to Breonna Taylor, all with the the tag line 'mostly peacefull'.

"This summer's uptick in murders in cities is still far less than it was ten years ago. "
It is called the Ferguson effect. That's in tribute to the "gentle giant" who did not have his hands up but was busy trying to beat a police officer to death. A fact found out by Attorney General Holder, but not repeated by Obama or other in an effort to curtail the violence seen now. The tacit support of the mob is done in effort to drive Trump from office and disredit government at all levels so that the left will have a stage set in which to enact the radical transformations they desire but which the people of the Republic don't.

The Twisted Genius

pl,

It’s true. I don’t lament the passing of the Virginia which gave birth to the “massive resistance” movement in the 50s. And Virginia may be for lovers, but not for the Lovings in the 60s. I knew very little of Virginia outside of the history books until I moved here in 1995. Besides her natural beauty, I was impressed by the steady political moderation in Richmond. Clearly that’s being tested now, but I see it returning after this terrible year passes. Virginia is so much more than massive resistance and Loving vs. Virginia.

Perhaps Stuart, Jackson and Lee will find fitting new homes in the western part of the state. That’s something the UDC, SCV and Virginia Flaggers should work on. They would look great in a prominent point somewhere along the Blue Ridge Mountains. The Davis monument was just butt ugly. Good riddance to that one. Maury should go to Annapolis. Sure he was a strong proponent of slavery, but he was so much more. His monument beautifully embodied that much more. At some point, there may be a monument to the USCT who marched into Richmond that April morning in 1865. A great many of those USCT were Virginians from the eastern lowlands. There will be a hue and cry against it, just as there was when the modest Lincoln statue was erected in Shockoe Bottom, but Richmond will endure.

zm

I was born and grew up in a country that no longer exists.
The political system was not the best but it allowed for a lot of dialogue.
The economic system was also flawed, but was much better than the Soviet one.
There were problems, ancient resentments and some bad blood, but also there were many things that bound the people together.
It did not survive. When the first shots were fired there was a lot of shock and disbelief.
Almost no one believed war was possible and yet it came regardless.

Some political and media rhetoric I see in US today reminds me a lot of that period before the chaos.
There is the famous story of the two Wolfs.
I fear that much of the mainstream media and politicians feed the wrong wolf.

Phillip e Cattar

Artemesia,Actually Florida is one of the worst states for secession on a cultural basis.Most of my mother's people settled here in the early 1830s when it was a territory.This is not my great,great grandfather's state.Florida would have to de divided into 3 states..............Look at the voting patterns.NW Florida and much of N Florida are solid red.SE Florida is very blue.Central Florida is a mixed bag.............Even the Hispanics in Flodida have deep divisions .The Miami Cubans are more likely to be Repubs while the I4 corridor Puerto Ricans,a growing community,are very blue..................The native whites living in NW Flodida vote like the whites in OK........SE Florida in just NY and NJ with palm trees...............IMO the best states to succeed would be ID,Ut,WY and OK on the red side and Wash,OR,HI and NM on the blue side.........Mt is turning purple...The Dakotas are also good candidates for the red.Maybe Mn for the blue.

turcopolier

All

I delete a lot of hard core leftist comments. They desperately want to shut me up or effectively take over SST, but I will keep a few to have someone for you to argue against.

blue peacock

Deap & TV,

My folks grew up in the rural mid-west during that time. They believed the country was gonna fall completely apart then. In their view the violence was real then and the civil discord was palpable across many fracture lines. They feel today is just a manufactured hysteria and other than a few orchestrated anarchists for the cameras there's not the kind of deep societal angst compared to then. Of course they never got into social media with Facebook or Twitter or Instagram accounts and they stopped watching cable & broadcast news at least a decade ago.

Now, I'm on record here that in my opinion, identity politics and the culture wars are designed as a distraction to the complete chokehold on the system by the oligarchy. I mean they not only have near monopoly control of every major market sector, they control both political parties, as well as the judiciary.

IMO, George Carlin was spot-on!

https://youtu.be/fT03vCaL-F0

Deap, you say Trump appointed a "strict constructionist court". What do you mean by that in actual practical terms not just in rhetoric? Was Citizens United a "strict constructionist" ruling? Was the refusal to take up the myriad cases against mass surveillance and ruling in the government's favor in the many lawsuits against surveillance without any probable cause also "strict constructionist"? Was the gutting of Do Not Call by Amy Coney Barrett also "strict constructionist"? When you look at the actual rulings of Justices Barrett, Kavanaugh & Gorsuch, they have overwhelmingly voted for the state against the individual and big business against the consumer. IMO, that is against the spirit of the writings in the Federalist Papers. What Trump & McConnell have done I believe is stack the court with proponents of big business & big government!

Trump is just as much of a conman as Obama & Bernie are. They are taking advantage of the same propaganda machine to drive the culture wars to distract from the continued looting over the decades by the oligarchy. Now, they also have a secure SCOTUS majority.

I read so many on the "right" concerned about "marxism". Yet, they have no problem that American Airlines just got a $5 billion loan from the Trump Treasury. If they were capitalists they would have required AA to raise additional capital by issuing more equity diluting existing management and shareholders. They have no problem that under both Obama & Trump the Fed has printed up trillions to send o Blackrock & Citadel. Both the "right" and "left" back marxism for the oligarchs just not for the Deplorables. The success of "conservatives" and "liberals"; Trump & Obama/Bernie; is to focus the working & middle classes on the social and culture wars and getting these people to vote consistently against their economic interests. Yes, this divide & distract strategy has been a massive success over the past 40+ years as the working & middle class get squeezed even more. The lockdown epitomize it so well as the small business sector have been crushed financially while the oligarchs have increased their wealth by hundred of billions during this same period.

Keith Harbaugh

TTG: Just curious:
When you chose a place to which to retire, did you consider NH?
You certainly have connections there, and both you and I know it has plenty of natural beauty.
Also, although I don't know this, I suspect its cost of living is quite attractive.
So I'm just wondering why you chose VA over NH?
(This is not an antagonistic question, although as you know I do sometimes have those.)

Eric Newhill

Blue Peacock,
Keeping infrastructure critical business functioning is hardly Marxism; at worst it's cronnie capitalism. If you think it's Marixism, then maybe you should read a little Solzhenitsyn.

Deap

blue peacock, if you demand 100% fidelity to an abstract principle, we will both be disappointed.

I am happy at least there is a consideration of the language found in the US Constitution, instead of making up legal principles out of whole cloth to achieve any pre-determined social activist results. All politics are theater.

The pendulum swung too far one way, and that as the Trump backlash. The deep state craziness did its best to neutralize the Trump pendulum swing for the first term. Now that the rules of the game are established, it will be good to see what Trump finally gets done in his next term. And then the pendulum will swing again.

Americans fundamentally get nervous when one party has too much power - we all basically hate government and do our best to screw it up - no matter who is in nominal power at the time. GOP has plenty of egg on its faces in the past. Don't ask me to excuse or apologize for this lumbering operation called the US government. I am just happy we put the brakes on unfettered "progressivism" and could squeeze in a few road blocks - all of which can be undone in an eye blink with another vote of the people.

I am genuinely distressed over the co-opting role of the large unelected government administrative agencies and their highly disciplined employee unions. That was not foreseen nor addressed in the US Constitution or even imagined by the Founders - what people would want unelected "Big Government" running their lives? And paying heavily for this well into the future.

Yes, Trump is con man - we just like what he is selling - nothing wrong with America First, after too many years of America the Horrible. Obama was a charlatan who lied about his real motivations and who he was lazily fronting for. Trump gets in your face, but he does check out - there is a brilliant chess player at work so sometimes it is not so obvious, but he tells us upfront where he wants to go. And for the most part he gets us there - promises made; promises kept. He earned this motto.

America needs Trump right now. Look no further than the sober analysis of Victor Davis Hansen and his book "The Case for Trump". He also opines Trump will ultimately be a tragic figure because he will fail to understand where he went wrong, in trying to get his agenda across -why he kept running into a buzz saw of opposition. That blind spot is his tragic flaw. But we elect human beings to these offices; not gods.

Even Trump could not accurately assess the depth of the deep state. That in fact will be America's tragic flaw too. Petty bureaucrats who in fact do have far too much power over our lives today, but they are now so pervasive and dug in they cannot be dislodged. We learned this the hard way in today's California. I know of what i speak.

America will eventually sort itself out again ---- but that is another chapter to be written probably well after I am gone. Where else do people go, even those who took America for granted, or even hated America. Even they have to come up with alternate solutions eventually. Eating their seed corn is not an option, which is all they are currently putting on the table right now.

I leave you with one of my own favorite reminders: "Foolish inconsistencies are the hobgoblins of little minds". Go long and go big.

Eg: activist vs strict constructionist courts;
----9th Circuit - judges used Trump newspaper quotes to justify ruling against Trump in a legal hearing.
----SCOTUS: made up the "right or privacy" which you can now drive a truck through to get anything you want, which is a right not expressly in the USConstitution
---Judicial Branch is asked to be more activist today because the Legislative Branch had defaulted on their own constitutional duties. That is not the solution; it is a sign of dysfunction. And a sign voters have also abdicated their intended role as the sovereign "rulers" of this country. They now howling partisan mobs, whose mob voice the Founders knew should be avoided at all costs.

Our intended balance of power and dual sovereignty principles are out of whack - they need to be wiggled back into place. Congress who was intended to be the primary source of power, hemmed in by the Executive and the Judiciary, has dropped the ball.

This means everything else now is in disarray. it shows. Voters are frustrated on all sides. The sabotage by the deep state post-2016 election was the ugliest national chapter we have seen since the Civil War. For the "loyal opposition" to now claim Trump will not transfer power peacefully is a slap in the face. 2016 was by far the worst transfer of power I have ever witnessed - a rank, parisan betrayal of one of our more sterling governance principles.

So we look now for at least a new SCOTUS majority that throws the ball back into the Legislative Branch, which is a good thing. And not forcing the Executive Branch to issue EO's just to get anything done is also a good thing.

But as long as the deep state owns the Democrat party and the existential survival needs of the deep state overtake the "will of the people" or the deep state has grown so large is has now become the "will of the people" the future of our constitutional form of government is in peril. Which is why the outcome of this election matters; and the outcome of 2016 mattered more than most people appreciated - we wanted to rebalance recent trends.

And yes in 2016, we had to choose between two con artists to carry out that choice - Amazing, but perhaps comforting because it shows even after 250 years we have no hereditary ruling class. Be grateful for small favors.

Biden is a tool of the deep state and its excess and distorted lust for power, they don't care who carries their agenda because their own survival riding in on any horse available is what matters most.

Trump is the outsider, break the place up, as much in frustration as anything else because the system stopped working as designed so we collectively flail to do something grand to get it restarted again.

Trump got the winning straw and to date his accomplishments have been pretty extraordinary despite the deep state road blocks, who are operating from frog brain mode since 2016.

The Twisted Genius

Keith Harbaugh,

We really didn't contemplate moving somewhere to retire. This just happened to be where my last full time jobs brought us. After returning from Germany, I worked out at Vint Hill Farms Station in Faurquier County. That was a glorious commute from Stafford over small county roads. The only traffic jam I had was when someone's hogs got loose and blocked the road along with the occasional slow moving farm machinery. The commute to DIA sucked out loud, but the VRE commuter train eventually made that bearable. The sunrises over the Potomac made the trip worthwhile. My sons first came back here after graduating college before setting out to Richmond and Alexandria. Now we prefer to staying close to them. We also had our fill of moving both in the Army and as a civilian. We bought our first and only house here and we'll die here. We do miss the northern winters. I have three sets of skis and two pairs of snowshoes in the cellar. and we dread the hot, humid summers here in Virginia. But Virginia is not a bad place to live at all. We do miss New England and real upstate New York (Adirondacks). That's what i consider God's country. Not Connecticut, though. Too crowded and too expensive.

Keith Harbaugh

TTG: Thanks for the info.
Ah yes, VHFS, out there in Warrenton. I visited there a few times in the 70s. Were the antenna farms still there? Back in the 70s it had acres of ground-hugging antennas, I guess to pick up signals with a very long wavelength. Anyhow, that really was the country.
ASA had some of its facilities in very nice places: Augsburg, Berlin, Ft. Devens, Warrenton, Arlington (AHS).

Sorry to hear about your underused skis. The last few winters have been so wsrm.

turcopolier

KH

et all. My ancestors founded Massachusetts, Connecticut and New Hampshire. I have not been north of NY City for 20 years except for a few trips to Harvard for amusing meetings. The weather sucks. Lobster, clams, haddock and flounder are all good, but you can have the rest of my share. I am quite a good crosscountry skier and wasn't bad downhill back in the day. Barnie McQuaid taught me. It will be fun to see if you can figure out who that was.

Fred

Col.,

My French ancestors arrived when New Amersterdam was still Dutch, the Irish side in scenic Rutland a couple centuries later. The English and German sides into NJ some time before the revolution, some others were here all along. I'm with you about the weather, though it is a spur to reading, writing and making babies. Now if we could just convince everyone that New New York is going to be the place to be maybe they'll stay out of Florida. As a final thought, is Barnie McQuaid any relation to Isaac Smoot?

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