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04 August 2020

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Fred

Babak,

In Minneapolis that would be the Democratic Party leadership, since they were in charge when a police officer - not the entire department - one now in prison, killed Justine Diamond, and it is still the Democratic party leaderhsip in charge of Minneapolis. The nationwide riots are not seeking removing the Democratic Party leadership that allowed this type of policing.

Babak makkinejad

Artemesia

African-Americans have the gift of gab, the Irish being a distant second.

No one in America can match the oratory of an African-American preacher but another such.

"... a verbal machine gun..." - only to those who are unaware or un-gifted in gab.

And I ask myself: "Was a fake 20-dollar bill worth all of this and that which followed?"

turcopolier

james

This is not a court of law, Canadian or US. This is a court of reason based on evidence.

akaPatience

It would be interesting to know if George Floyd had ever overdosed in the past. I presume, maybe wrongly though, there are some sort of records kept when NARCAN is administered. Granted, records may not include the addicts' names. A significant percentage of fire/EMT runs in the region where I live are for drug overdoses, and I've read news reports that occasionally there are addicts who overdose more than once in a single day.

George Floyd had nearly 4X the amount of fentanyl in his system that's been known to cause death, not counting all of the other toxic substances the autopsy revealed. In a fair trial that alone would surely be a mitigating factor.

Diana Croissant

It appears to me that Mr. Floyd was almost, if not in fact, a "dead man walking" at the time the police wee called in over a fake $20 bill.

A whole lot of turmoil in our country could have been prevented if the police had not done the jobs they were trained and paid to do and instead had simply gone in to give the clerk a valid $20 bill and allowed Floyd to go into "that good night" (a reference to the famous poem by Dylan thomas). Floyd seems to have tried as much as possible, with or without conscious intent, to commit suicide.

I know that it is "illegal" to make such an attempt; however, think of how much trouble our country has endured because the police tried to do fulfill their dutues.

People intent on killing themselves--whether they are fully cognizant or not that they are subconsciously or consciously trying to do that--are perhaps the most dangerous people for the police to deal with. If things go wrong in an encounter with such a person, the police get all the blame and the person who is the cause of the trouble gets the sympathy.

I believe that all the information that has finally been released was released for the sake of the officers whom the prosecutor felt needed some sympathy too.

Artemesia

Someone pointed out that The Chinese Killed George Floyd!
He had Fentanyl and (Wuhan) Covid virus in his body.

upstater

Many knee-jerk reactions here...

Glad for the clarification that kneeling on someone's neck for 9 minutes according to written procedures from Israeli security consultants is OK. Likewise, ignoring "I can't breathe" statements 20 times is OK. And since DUI arrests are by far the most common, neck-kneeling should be SOP for those, too. If someone is intoxicated, no rules to prevent harm apply?

I don't know about laws in MN or GA, but often charges such as Murder incorporate "lesser included" charges of Voluntary or involuntary Manslaughter. Chauvin will be convicted of something. Finding conspiracy in prosecutions to facilitate more rioting is rubbish.

Chauvin was a bad apple. He should have been fired long before he killed Floyd. Accountability of police misconduct shouldn't be a determination of the police unions.

In New York, police disciplinary records are to be made public. Turns out the local PD "can't find" 48 case records and wants the citizen review panel (that has no power in disciplinary actions) to supply the records. The PD apparently destroyed the records and let dozens of complaints lapse beyond the 18 month time limit.

This is all part of the thin blue line - of silence. We need cops, but we should demand professionalism, not goon squads.

BABAK MAKKINEJAD

Fred:

In my opinion, in the United States, in Domestic or in Foreign policy, neither Democrats nor Republicans can articulate a credible positive set of policies.

Yes, I understand that the Party of the WASPs is strong on the Second Amendment - "We are shipping all the jobs to China, India, Mexico - but you can own as many guns as you like."

The Rainbow Coalition, on the other hand, states: "We are also shipping all the jobs to China, India, Mexico - but you can dope your way to euphoria, marry a sheep etc.; as you like it."

Both parties still on the path of foreign wars on behalf of their common religious ideas of Protestantism.

Am I missing something here?

BABAK MAKKINEJAD

james:

I agree with you.

JoeC100

It appears that one needs to be well informed about fentanyl to fully understand George Floyd's death.

Soon after Floyd's death, Scott Adams's blog had his observations of Floyd's death. Adams has deep personal knowledge as his stepson died from a fentanyl overdose. Key points I recall were that people on a serious fentanyl dose are incapable of rational thought which makes dealing with them quite challenging. Also, Adams stated that it is quite important to place someone with a serious overdose on their stomach, as leaving them on their back will accelerate the loss of ability to breathe.

And an extensive "forensic" discussion of this event with great detail about the fentanyl overdose process is posted at https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/

Both suggest to me that one needs to have serious knowledge of how fentanyl overdoses effect users and how they can lead to death to have a reliable view on the role of the police officers in this situation.

Eric Newhill

James,
Have you taken the two minutes to try the technique yet?

A lot of people here are ignoring that fact that Floyd, with all that junk in his system and in that frame of mind we see on the video, was behind the wheel of a car. Just let him go because it was just a $20 bill? What would the PD say to the families of the victims of the vehicle crash that Floyd may well have caused? The little country of Canada won't even let an American into the country if they've ever had a DUI/DWI on their record. Ever (another fact that you won't bother to take the two minutes to validate), but Americans should allow highly intoxicated drivers loose on their roads?

Yes, Floyd asked for the knee when he decided to resist arrest, the knee being a safe and effective dept approved means of restraining someone who is resisting and potentially dangerous to self or others.

Eric Newhill

Babak,
One of your other personalities is hard core for enforcement of The Law.

So is the Babak on this thread ready to talk about stoning women to death for showing a little leg or adultery? How about hanging drug users? All under The Law, of course.

Larry Johnson

Upstater,
Just showing your ignorance. Police do not have a magical truth detector. Floyd's repeated claims that "I can't breath" the application of the knee restraint by at least 5 minutes. He was acting so strange there is no reason to accord him the benefit of the doubt and accept everything he said as true. Second, the knee to the neck was not brought in by the Israelis. You're an anti-semitic ass. It is an approved technique for restraining someone without causing them harm. The groundless media claims that this caused his death is flat out wrong. You may not like how it looks, but Chauvin and the the other officers were instructed to use this as one method to restrain a suspect. That is not their fault. People like you, with perfect 20/20 hindsight, can easily complain that it should not be use. What other techniques in the MPD training manual do you think should be changed or revised. The most important thing an objective, intelligent viewer can glean from watching the video is that none of the officers used an racial epithets or disparaging insults against Floyd.

Eric Newhill

Larry,
It would be interesting and helpful to know how many times the knee restraint was used without any harm coming to the suspect. I'd bet hundreds if not thousands across the country in the past 8 years +/-..

This article suggests the restraint was used 237 times by MPD with no deaths and a few injuries occurring as well as instances of the suspect passing out. However, as expected, the article is heavily slanted against the police and it is not internally consistent. We don't know what other factors are involved, the nature of "injuries", when they occurred, etc. It also seems to confuse the knee technique with chokeholds when convenient to the anti-police slant. That said, no one had died from the technique - and maybe a violent suspect passing out is not such an undesirable outcome.

I can't find any scientific articles available on line that describe the use of that type of restraint in the larger of context of dealing with resisting arrest and in comparison to other options.

I know that all options present a level of danger to the suspect, the police and the community. Tasers can - and do - kill from time to time. Same with all "non-lethal" options available to police. It seems the best our armchair quarterbacking friends here can come up with is letting anyone resisting arrest go on their merry way to continue to put the community at risk (e.g. Floyd driving while highly intoxicated).

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/minneapolis-police-rendered-44-people-unconscious-neck-restraints-five-years-n1220416

Mark K Logan

James,

My comment was in response to "James Doleman". Sorry for the confusion. I generally agree with your comments.

I have read the Floyd was still on probation in another state. I suspect that contributed to his panicky state. It's a cold harsh situation: Get in trouble, back to jail you go. Conviction not needed, jail is where you will await your trial. Having been speed-balling of late certainly didn't help his ability, if any, to deal with stress gracefully.

Some have said he was on the verge of ODing from a depressant but I see no evidence of that from the video. People close to that are limp, chin-down, and uncommunicative. He was near the opposite. What we interpret from the toxicology reporting will be worthless, the jury will accept the coroner's interpretation. Judging fatal doses is a sketchy undertaking for laymen.

Larry Johnson

Mark Logan,
This is not "laymen" judging on their own. The medical evidence about what constitutes a lethal dose of fentanyl is quite clear. The amount present in Floyd's blood was a lethal dose. PERIOD. Deal with the facts and not your opinions.

Larry Johnson

James,
What happened to Floyd after Officers removed him from the car was entirely appropriate. They did not mishandle him. They did not verbally nor physically abuse him. He was restrained on the ground in accordance with established Minneapolis Police Department procedures as taught at the academy and written in the manual. Now, you may not like those procedures, but that is not the fault of the officers. They are held accountable if they do not follow procedure. Your ignorance of these matters is breathtaking.

turcopolier

james

"is a cheap distraction" This is ad hominem. Do it again and I will ban you.

Mark K Logan

Larry,

I seen no conclusive evidence that the levels found constitute a lethal dose. Certainly the autopsy did not characterize the levels found as lethal. A quick google search provides experts saying it wasn't necessarily lethal as well. Are you sure of your analysis?

Fred

Babak,

"Party of WASPs..." "The Rainbow Coalition, on the other hand, states: ".... dope your way to euphoria, marry a sheep etc.; as you like it."

The race and religous baiting is egregious. Yes, you are missing that as boorish as he is personally Trump ran on bringing jobs back and ending involvement in foreign wars. Running on the Republican ticket he defeated a dozen others and then defeated Hilary, who's support included, however tepid, the Obama wing of the left.

As bumbling as he has been during his time in office he has managed to have the press show themselves as incompetent, biased and corrupt. He has drawn into the public view the fact that many career professionals in government at all levels are biased, incompetent and corrupt. He has also cut bureaucratic red tape, cut illegal immigration, and began the first phase of on-shoring manufacturing capabilities into the US. He even managed to do something for working and middle class black families econically that did not consist of race based set-assides or handouts.

The left hates him all the more for that, and it is one reason they are destroying as much of the inner city economies as they can - to enforce reliance on government at all cost so as to keep 1/3 of their voting base dependent upon the democratic party office holders. They won't survive as a party unless they can successfully continue discrediting the concept that being "American" transcends racial lines, that there are redemptive qualities in all men and that historical faults can be transcended; thus they continue to divide upon racial lines, instill a learned helplessness and project outward a collective guilt upon the history of the country, and by association the inheritence of guilt - or victimhood - of Americans.

Eric Newhill

Jame's,
I am not an insurance "agent".

My point about Canada is that, liberal as Canada is, your country still takes driving under the influence extremely seriously; so seriously it bars entry to anyone who has *ever* been convicted of DUI. That is relevant to both the Floyd case and the case in Atlanta that also resulted in riots and police being fired and arrested themselves. So I think it is highly disingenuous for people to characterize the arrests as being over a $20 bill or merely "sleeping" in his car.

So once the police got Floyd out of the car, what were they supposed to do with him? Allow him - a known violent felon - to roam the streets in an extremely intoxicated state? Would that be safe for Floyd? For the citizens of the city? What message would that send to other would be wasted drivers? Your country wants to send a strong message about intoxicated driving; mine is not allowed to?

Given that you must now admit that Floyd needed to be arrested, everything that Larry said in response applies.

ponderer

What gets me are the calls for the police to "provide CPR" to a person claiming to have "just" had Covid (didn't we just shut down the country for this highly infectious disease) and who is undoubtedly high or crazy. Chauvin has been pilloried in the media for if not outright murder at least indifference, and for not responding to the multiple people at the scene trying to cause issues with the police.

I've noticed a disconcerting pattern with these highly publicized cases of supposed officer brutality that started with Philando Castile. In the video released by the new agencies, but not reported in the transcripts or any public testimony I clearly heard the deceased volunteer that he has a gun in the car. Then the officer says that's ok, just don't reach for it. The next part in the transcript says "inaudible". But I heard clearly him say "I gonna have to reach for it" in an agitated manner. Cop says "don't pull it out" he responds "i'm gonna pull it out". I assume the pistol was in his pocket with his ID. Within a split seconds the cop reaches in and grabs the reaching arm and yells at him not to reach for his pistol and they struggle before shots ring out. I believe this was the video i first watched.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MY7wk5LDM4o

The video even on you tube, from CBS, doesn't appear to have the same audio. Perhaps it was "cleaned up"? The volume levels are different but in some of the video the driver never says he is pulling out his firearm. Dunno, maybe I have super hearing or an active imagination.

BABAK MAKKINEJAD

Fred:

I stand by what I have stated.

What is the (American) Right's positive program of action?

Where is "Hope" in where they stand: public squalor, private splendor.

What is Right's view of the activities of one Eddie Lampert?

You cannot beat the Left with Nothing.

turcopolier

james

It does not matter if you see it as ad hominem. I do.

Fred

Babak,

Perhaps you should change the tv channel. You read like a propaganda piece reader not an autotive industry professional in SE Michigan. Nobody on the right is promoting public squalor, though there's plenty of evidence of that being spread around in cities run by the democrats, as you are well aware. There have been plenty of broadcasts with Trump administartion officials explaining trade policy, a variety of domestic policies, and foreign policies as well. Too bad about sear, which bought out kmart years ago. One rich guy, who I had to google to find out who you were talking about, didn't run the companies into the dirt all by his lonesome.

"You cannot beat the Left with Nothing." Try here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0723ug6nP3k

Attend one, oh, wait, the left won't let them happen anymore. I wonder why......

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