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02 August 2020

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Fred

Yeah, Right,

Mandatory face burkas, social distancing and crowd limits are not "something approaching normality". Restricting religous services while allowing political - one side only - protests and staged funerals for the symbolic elite are social control mechanisms.

"Success is when the health authorities know where people are catching the disease..."
You are saying that stopping people from dieing is no longer a policy concern (perhaps it never was), it is eradicating the spread of a very survivable viral infection? That seems a rather asinine policy to submit to as a citizen.

Yeah, Right

Yes, that has always been my understanding. The levers of power here are immeasurably smaller, so less need for vigilance.

Or we simply don't have a high enough opinion of the political class to fear them, however much we consider them untrustworthy (which, of course, we do).

If you really want to know the Australian attitude to "government" then consider this: as far as I know we are the only western-style democracy to have lost a head of government.

Not killed. Not overthrown. Just.... wandered off when nobody was paying attention and he was never seen again.

English Outsider


Walrus - I was going to ask if I could submit your entry, with the references, to an English site that looks at Covid. As a brisk no-nonsense account of how things can go badly wrong if even one link in the chain breaks.

Then I came to my senses. The site would be ringing with "racist" and "Gotcha" for days. The common sense of your entry would be immediately overlaid with all that and its value would be lost.

As far as I know that would happen also if you published it an a Melbourne paper. To judge by the people from there I've met it's generally much the same there.

So it is that it's only on a site thousands of miles away from both of us, Colonel Lang's site, can such matters be discussed without fear of the sense immediately being overlaid by the irrelevant. Makes one thoughtful, that.

As for the Covid debate, it's become so intertwined with politics that it's no longer purely a public health matter.

If it ever was. The public health measures that can be taken in Mongolia aren't measures you could ever get away with in Germany. The measures that can be taken in Germany wouldn't fly in Montana. Cultural characteristics are as fixed a variable in public health as those the epidemiologists puzzle over and unless they are taken into account no policy can be effective.

Except here in England, of course. Our politicians have so confused the matter with fuzz and PR that no one really knows what's happening: and we proceed on our way in a state of slightly grumpy nescience.

Terence Gore

GMA covered the Georgia YMCA story this AM. The big headline is 260 got sick. In reality 260 kids tested positive. IOW 260 kids caught a summer cold. The story is being used to shut down school for the fall as the dangerous spreaders will going back and infect others.

https://www.ajc.com/news/coronavirus/260-coronavirus-cases-tied-to-north-georgia-camp-outbreak/NZDPEZRRUNHT7CVE43JOPUAVSY/


My feeling is that we need the kids to be exposed to the virus. Over 99% will not suffer any major consequences. I can understand the older teachers being concerned, but as a country I feel it is an illusion that we can be made 100 per cent safe from this thing.

james

@ pat... i think this question of trust, verses distrust of gov't is the major difference we are witnessing with numbers on covid... the more the distrust of gov 't, the more the covid numbers... that is what it looks like to me..

BillWade

I understand the plan includes one having to stay 6 weeks at whatever location you slept at last night and allows for warrant less searches of homes by the police. That would be troublesome in the USA.

Trust the government: I remember back in the 60s-70s when birth control pills were introduced and touted, "we really need woman to take them as our population is 180 million people and we're approaching doom, it's way too many people". Now we have 330 million and it's just not enough.

turcopolier

james

We are perhaps unique in the English speaking world for our tradition of distrust of government. It dates from colonial times.

james

@ pat... i think it is justified, however it seems to have been cultivated to high art and the politicians seem to thrive on outdoing each other over ''less gov't''.. we need roads and basic infrastructure and this is one of the things gov'ts do... i get confused with the constant talk of less gov't... it sounds like no gov't to me, and gov't only as rubber stamp for the corporations... but i am by nature cynical..

TonyL

Fred,

"Mandatory face burkas, social distancing and crowd limits are not "something approaching normality". Restricting religous services while allowing political - one side only - protests and staged funerals for the symbolic elite are social control mechanisms."

I somewhat agree with the substance of what you said. But the slur "face burkas" is not necessary.

"You are saying that stopping people from dieing is no longer a policy concern (perhaps it never was), it is eradicating the spread of a very survivable viral infection? That seems a rather asinine policy to submit to as a citizen."

In my opinion, the generalization "this virus is fatal to the elderly" used by the health authority had caused a wrong perception in the public. What you think above is a case in point.

This virus is actually very serious to people who have some pre-existing health condition such as diabete, high blood pressure, heart disease. That covers a substantial part of the population here in the US (about 100M). The older you are, the higher probability that you have these pre-conditions. And especially for most people who are 70 or older. Doubly serious for the elders because their bodies cannot sustain a prolong fight against the virus. The population of 40 or younger people is most likely not to have those illness, therefore it is not so serious to themselves. However, they can spread the virus to other people very easily, since this is a new virus.

turcopolier

james
Typical Canadian

Yeah, Right

Fred: "That seems a rather asinine policy to submit to as a citizen."

A curious sentence. Being a citizen by definition involves submitting to policy. It is the difference between society and anarchy. Between a citizenry and a mob.

You have accepted without question policies that are asinine, and you don't ever think about them because you have followed them all your life.

For example: you never question the policy that says you can be arrested for walking naked down main street, no matter how hot the day. It never occurs to you to drive down the other side of the streets, nor do you deny that a red-coloured light on a street corner rules tells you when you can and cannot move, even if you are running late, damn-it.

Our government has set out a four-stage series of lockdowns and explained what you can and cannot do in each. The decision for when each stage is triggered is theirs because, you know, making decisions on our behalf is what "governing" is.

If we don't like it - if we consider it "asinine" - then our remedy comes at the voting booth. But not before: I no more have a "right" to do that than I have a "right" to run red lights or walk around Pitt Street Mall with my wedding-tackle hanging out.

"Mandatory face burkas, social distancing and crowd limits"...

A statement as unbecoming as it is ignorant.

Mask wearing has never been compulsory in Sydney. If it ever does become mandatory (and the state government reserves that right) then *by* *definition* the government is admitting we have left normality way behind. One follows the other, it is not a decision that will be made on a whim.

As for social distancing and crowd control, such rules have always existed. Nightclub owners and eateries have always had limits on clientele as part of their licenses, and always for reasons of public safety.

Your life is ruled by rules, Fred, always has been, in numbers too many to count.

To complain about these current rules while not even being away of how you have lived your life is to reveal the depths of your prejudices. Nothing more. No less.

Fred

Tonyl,

"Face burka" is used as a metaphor, not in any religious sense, but as a symbol of submission to unjust government commanderance of the inherent rights of Americans. Thanks for confirming the effectiveness of the term. This disease isn't killing people with high blood pressure, which is quite treatable; it is killing the old, those actually sick, and the clinically obese, but actual data on co-morbidities of those who died is not published.

The manipulation of data and risk by professional bureaucrats like Fauci and Birx is entirely political. Destruction of much of the economy and social fabric of the country is also political and has nothing to do with saving the elderly. Blaming children, or "The population of 40 or under", is just another excuse to promote economic destruction of those at the bottom of the economy. The elderly can be given some other method of protection. The discussion of alternatives, other than sites like this, is generally silenced in one manner or another.

Fred

Yeah Right,

You sound like a subject of a state, not a citizen to whom government is supposed to be the servant, not the master.

TonyL

Fred,

""Face burka" is used as a metaphor, not in any religious sense, but as a symbol of submission to unjust government commanderance of the inherent rights of Americans. Thanks for confirming the effectiveness of the term."

You cannot be serious! (as John McEnroe, my all-time farorite tennis champion, used to scream in US Open). It is a loaded term. An implicit putdown to people who wear burka for cultural or religious reason.

""The population of 40 or under", is just another excuse to promote economic destruction of those at the bottom of the economy."

Sorry you feel that way. You seem to see ghosts everywhere.

If you actually read what I posted, I've emphasized that there is no need to close down the economy, if we do the 3 things: wearing masks, physical distancing, and contact tracing. In the US, we have failed to do these 3 important methods to slow/stop the pandemic. We are killing ourselves because we are too busy arguing about ideology.

turcopolier

TonyL

No, we are killing ourselves by shutting down the country so that a socialist province of the globalist state can be built on the rubble.

Yeah, Right

Fred: "You sound like a subject of a state"

A subject of the Queen, in fact. Though nobody cares, least of all Her Mag Queen Lizzie.

Fred: "not a citizen to whom government is supposed to be the servant, not the master."

Ours is a Westminster-style of parliamentary government.

Governments are created by the Parliament, which in turn is elected by the people.

Governments rise or fall entirely upon whether (or not) they enjoy of "confidence of the house". As long as they can do that then they "govern", and the role of the voter is to determine who makes up that parliament.

If we don't like that then there are well-defined remedies:
(a) seek redress in the courts or
(b) grit our teeth until the next elections, then rip 'em a new one.

So the government is the servant of the parliament, each member of which in turn is the servant of his/her constituents.

The voter is neither a servant of the government, nor is it a servant of the parliament, much less the servant of their sitting member.

I'm (slightly) curious: what is your concept of "governing"?

To my mind it is the government that governs because - axiomatically - that is what makes them a government.

You have a different concept, apparently.

But, so sorry, "government is supposed to be the servant, not the master" strikes me as a an example of empty posturing, it is not a political manifesto.

mcohen

send hurricane isaias out to sea,let it linger there with lightning skyward and seaward.salvations witness.

Fred

TonyL,

"implicit putdown" 'face burka' is a completely made up the term, as is your implied outrage.

"we are too busy arguing about ideology"
No, but the left is quite busy destroying society in a desperate attempt to keep Trump from being reelected.

Fred

Yeah Right,

I'm writing a comment on a blog post, not a political manifesto, however I'll point out we have other options here than just the two you mention.

walrus

Latest advice is that the Melbourne outbreak is caused by a mutation that makes it the most infectious strain on the planet so far. That is another reason for the lockdown.

Yeah, Right

…"I'll point out we have other options here than just the two you mention"...

I quite agree that there are a range of options.

I disagree that I am in any way responsible for introducing a dichotomy into this thread.

That would be someone else, posting back on 04 August 2020 at 12:33 AM

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