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01 July 2020


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@Babak, 1.12
The word "selection" springs to mind
Quarantine means all residents and staff are locked in for a specific duration with an outside body providing food and medicine. Quarantine was not applied to nursing homes. Staff were allowed to come and go without testing and without sufficient safety equipment or training. In addition, sick old people were sent from hospital back to the nursing home without testing and without regard to the fact that a nursing home is not equipped or staffed to be a hospital. Furthermore, old people in the community were advised to sign Do Not Resuscitate forms and not to call for an ambulance if they had a medical emergency. So I agree that the word "selection" seems an accurate description. The UK government certainly "harvested" the money from the unused pensions.

Another accurate description is "therapeutic nihilism" especially when a safe, generic, immunomodulatory drug regimen is available for early treatment to stop the infection developing into the lethal cytokine storm. This Moroccan scientist is commenting on Europe's general non-use of HCQ (there were exceptions) https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2020/06/306587/moroccan-scientist-moroccos-chloroquine-success-reveals-european-failures/

I understand the the US government stockpiled enough hydroxychloroquine to treat 15 million people. How many people could have been saved if this stockpile had been used in time.

English Outsider

Heaven forbid, Babak! But if I read the Guardian article right it suggested deliberate intent rather than incompetence. I think incompetence is enough to account for what happened.

So much for the general question. Now, about these pretty Junior Ministers. I thoroughly disapprove. It has long been established that politics is show business for ugly people and as a small "c" conservative I think that's how things should stay.


Babak and EO
I think the UK problem in care homes had more to do with the structural arrangement in the UK where most care homes are not NHS but relatively small commercial institutions with little or no ability to cope with infectious disease outbreaks in house. They also do not have, or routinely use, PPE and staff are not PPE trained. My son works in such an institution and they could not get the PPE they needed, had no budget to buy it anyway and the home had no room to increase physical separation. The biggest problem for them was staff. They had 3 homes in one area and staff would normally be rotated as required and they were heavily reliant on agency nursing staff who may have been supplied to an NHS hospital the previous day or another groups care homes. All of which makes for an accident waiting to happen. Normally care homes would look to the NHS to remove and treat patients but under epidemic conditions this could not always occur.
Johnson & Trump were slow to accept the seriousness of the situation initially expecting the health systems to cope without major problems. To their credit once the situation in Italy began to unfold they changed their tune but the lost time meant we were behind the curve in ramping up testing and PPE supplies for which there has been a price to pay.

Babak makkinejad


Thank you for providing the details that I had not, for brevity's purposes.

The "Do not resusicate" form and corresponding advice to the elderly showed clear intent to legal muder.

Babak makkinejad


UK has money for destroying Libya, fighting in Iraq, hijacking an Iranian tanker, or upgrading their nuclear weapons.

They did the same thing with the rail road service.

Squalor at home, aggression abroad.



"Johnson & Trump were slow to accept the seriousness of the situation initially expecting the health systems to cope without major problems. "

The US federal government does not run health care systems outside the VA and the military. Each state is sovereign. Governors Cuomo and Whitmer of NY and MI were ineffective in dealing with this issue and disasterous in issuing orders that sent infected patients back to nursing homes. Other governors, for example DeSantis in FL, were much more effective. Trump's use of executive orders to obtain PPE and the highly touted ventilators are both examples of him being effective. So was his elimination of multiple regulatory restraints mandated by the FDA on testing equipment or treatments.

On a bright note it looks like Trump was right about hydroxychloroquine. The experts and political opponents opposed that, including St. Fauci.



who forbid the use of hydroxychloroquine, it wasn't Trump?


Babak I agree. I am against our military meddling and have been arguing for many years that pandemic threats are a national security threat and should be prepared for as such. The budget for our military adventures could have been used to maintain the PPE and essential drugs stockpile, enhanced wild life sampling and advance broadly acting anti-virals research.

Fred I appreciate the Presidents can not decree but heads of state set the tone. If they say it is nothing to worry about then many will listen. If they call for immediate action more will happen.

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