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18 June 2020

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Eric Newhill

Larry,
This is an excellent piece.

I had never heard the term "ExDS" until a day or two ago, but what you have documented is what I've been saying. We used that neck restraint back in the mid 90s in situations where the subject was, basically, exhibiting what I guess is ExDS, or psychosis or some kind of wild craziness. No one ever died and it kept everyone safe (although I learned that someone had died and someone I knew had been fired as a result of the restraint he had utilized. Not sure if it was the neck restraint or something else). This was in Arizona.

I still think Chauvin should have been paying attention to Floyd's vital signs. Chauvin did everything right until the point where Floyd was obviously subdued because he was actively dying or dead. It was just one of those screw ups where there weren't any good choices. I think Floyd was going to die that day due to his own actions and psychology. If not that day, then one in the near future.

The media and politicians are legally responsible for inciting riots and morally responsible for dividing the country - as well as subverting the justice system. They all have blood on their hands.

I don't know they can walk this back. I don't know if they will even try; in which case there will be another round of riots when Chauvin is eventually not convicted of murder whether at trial or on appeal.

Thanks again for preparing some people for what is coming in a clear and concise manner.

Stephen Richter

Chauvin has to defend himself in the arena of public opinion. Make the case that he acted at all times to prevent Mr. Lloyd from harming himself. His training and experience indicated to him that Lloyd needed to be restrained and immobilized. Loosening his restraints would result in the delirious Lloyd resuming his thrashing about and increase the strain on his already taxed heart.

Challenge those who condemn him to state what they would have done differently. Then poke holes in these alternative courses of action, show how doing otherwise would have also endangered Mr. Lloyd.

Vegetius

Why waste a minute on an anti-white propaganda sheet like the Times?

I am troubled by the continued inability of baby boomers and silent gen white males to understand what the hell is going on in this country, even as it is collapsing around their ears.

This is a deliberate attempt to rally the black vote and paint straight white males as the enemy of every other group in the country, including their wives and their children.

It's a culture war aimed at crushing the ability of whites to resist globalism.

Trying to bring facts and logic and evidence to this is bringing a knife to a gun fight, or maybe waving the Federalist Papers at a predator drone. Better to use the big brains and military experience to help figure out how to fight back.

Bill H

There is a video taken by a police dashcam of a traffic stop in which an African-American female has to be removed from the car and handcuffed. The first thing she does, before they even have the cuffs on her, is start screaming repeatedly, "I can't breathe." This seems to have become the mantra since the death of Eric Garner. As soon as a cop touches you, start screaming that you can't breathe.

In a similar prosecution to Chauvin, the police officer who shot the man in Atlanta is being charged with "felony murder" rather than simple murder in any degree, in order to get around the need to show an intent to cause death. The charge is causing death while in commission of another felony crime, in this case "deadly assault with a weapon."

Seneschal

'Conservative' political leaders in the West meanwhile - Trump, Johnson in the UK - continue to walk the path of appeasement, as if there were some prospect of a peace treaty. The provocateurs aren't interested in peace, however. They aren't interested in any kind of detente. Any ground offered to them is immediately swallowed up and more is demanded. A meager human sacrifice of the odd 'bad cop' won't satisfy them.

The Titans are breaking their chains and their appetites are insatiable.

scott s.

I've been kind of a cynic about this. I could see a possibility that over-charging gets the public off the prosecutor's back, while months later a trial acquits. But in this time of cancel culture, I wonder if it is possible to get an impartial jury?

But I think the real cultural issue isn't whether a particular police restraint technique is proper or not, it's the question of why passing a a bad twenty or sleeping off a drunk in your car leads to death? I hear the argument "well, if confronted by law enforcement you should assume a submissive posture". Is that really what we want as a society? That we cower in front of someone who's authority comes from the state in the form of a shiny badge? i can see from the history of black experience that submission likely has much greater psychological impact.

Meanwhile, Hannity pushes his "bad apple" theory. It's always 99% are good, (same thing with FBI) just those bad apples we can't seem to do anything about. My personal opinion is municipal police departments aren't that great of an idea; I would prefer a return to constitutional sheriffs. Of course, just being a sheriff deputy instead of muni cop doesn't ensure any particular standard of conduct but the public has the authority to remove a sheriff.

wolf Shedler

Floyed was a viscous thug known to the cops for all of his crimes from assault to armed robbery. His days were up. Not saying that he deserved to die that day but soon thereafter with his type of behavior would have sent him to hell sooner than later .

Eric Newhill

scott s.
Did you read what Larry wrote? Did you read what the clerk at the store said about Floyd's condition? Did you observe Floyd's toxicology report? Did you watch the Donald Lewis video imbedded in Larry's piece? If so, how can you repeat the utter BS that he died because of a bad $20 bill?

Watch the Donald Lewis video and tell us what you would do with someone acting that way.

No one is asking anyone to "cower" before authority. How about a little responsibility for one's own behavior? Like don't take a lethal amount of drugs and act like a possessed person. How about don't start swinging at law enforcement, take their weapons and point them at the cops? This is very simple.

In neither case did the cops just drive around looking for someone to kill. They were called - I suspect in both incidents by African Americans - to deal with men who were clearly wasted on substances and committing crimes. The public asked police to intervene. Once law enforcement has decided to arrest you, fighting them - or even arguing with them - isn't going to change their minds. You are going to be arrested and resisting is only going to make it worse for you, perhaps fatally so, depending on the nature of how you decide to resist and a host of other factors. If you comply, you'll be booked, receive a court date and a lawyer and *then* you get to make your argument.

It cannot be any other way. If it were, there would be, literally, no law enforcement and a lot of dead cops and other people.

If you think that roaming around wasted on dope and acting like a possessed person or drunk driving and passing out in the drive through lane shouldn't lead to an arrest, then appeal to your government representatives to remove the laws that state those actions are crimes. As long as there are laws against those activities, then cops are going to enforce those laws. That's their job. It's right there in the title "law enforcement officers". This is not complicated.

BllWade

I'm hoping neither cop charged with murder take a plea deal. Both of them followed their respective rules of engagement written by politicians who never seem to be willing to take the blame.

Deap

Democrat legislators in Democrat police union dominated cities wrote the rule books. Did the left hand know what the left hand was doing?

Did the left hand marking the ballot know what the left hands were doing?

Keith Harbaugh

Regarding the forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden, there is one other high profile case worth noting that he examined, that of the death, either by suicide or murder, of Jeffrey Epstein:
https://youtu.be/QGYNxEjc6Wo

longarch

Eric Newhill wrote:

No one is asking anyone to "cower" before authority. How about a little responsibility for one's own behavior? Like don't take a lethal amount of drugs and act like a possessed person. How about don't start swinging at law enforcement, take their weapons and point them at the cops? This is very simple.

I respectfully disagree. There is some level of "responsibility for one's own behavior" that most Americans would agree on. Unfortunately it is impossible to draw the line to define where that level is. It is complicated by the fact that the law theoretically treats adult people as equal, but society and common sense insist that people are NOT equal, even when they are adults. The behavior of children is mostly a separate case, but the ridiculous degeneracy of irresponsible teenagers results in large masses of citizens who have the bodies of adults but who are treated like 4-year-olds by "authority" figures. The law is not truly designed to treat people equally, and even if it had been better designed, the people who administer the law are not wise enough to be impartial.

You might say "don't act like a possessed person." But the crew-cut jocks think hippies are possessed by the spirit of cowardice, and the hippies think the crew-cut jocks are possessed by the spirit of authoritarianism, and nobody can explicitly specify what range of behavior is acceptable. Everyone acts as if his/her/its particular subculture is the "authority," and everyone demands that every other subculture kneel before the authority of his/her/its subculture. The cops demand that the persons of color cease to resist, and the persons of color demand that the whites kneel before them and beg forgiveness for having been born white. Everyone wants outsiders to cower before authority, and no one can please all of them.

If I visit Japan, Japanese culture looks pretty monolithic. There is little room for disagreement or ambiguity regarding my responsibilities. If I am an ideal visitor, I am still just a visitor - maybe I will be allowed to stay a little longer. If my behavior is less than ideal, Japan will push me out at their earliest convenience. If I am truly an offensive lout, I might get pushed out ahead of my scheduled departure, but the Japanese are clever enough to avoid almost all visible unpleasantness. They don't want to scare the more respectable tourists.

If I visit the USA, American culture looks like chaos - a Hobbesian war of incompatible subcultures. A few groups, notably Christians, are willing to forgive me for being ignorant, but most groups never forgive outsiders. Among the gays, the wanna-be-cops, the pink-haired leftists, the lawyers, the salesmen, the scam artists, the morbidly obese, the punk rockers, the tenured boomers - there is no forgiveness for my ignorance. Each tiny subculture has its own idea of what acceptable behavior is, and they refuse to explain it, and they blame me for being ignorant. Everyone threatens everyone else with lawsuits. Theoretically everyone is "free" to choose a lifestyle, but everyone hates almost everyone else's lifestyle.

There is no such thing as an ideal visitor to the USA. No one can agree what acceptable behavior might be. No matter what a visitor does, that visitor becomes the enemy of several subcultures. If I voice disapproval of late-term abortion, some Christians might like me, but I make enemies of many other groups. If I voice disapproval of child exploitation, the gay lobby marks me for death. If I complain of a lower-class lout beating his girlfriend of the moment, I am marked as a racist. If I don't voice disapproval of women getting beaten, I am marked as an anti-feminist. If I try not to voice disapproval of anything, no one trusts me.

In the eighteenth century, the USA had great political freedom, great economic freedom, but very little lifestyle freedom. Now the USA has only the appearance of lifestyle freedom. So, no, it is NOT possible to take responsibility for your actions in the USA. No matter WHAT your actions are, some American somewhere will threaten to sue you.

Account Deleted

In reply to Keith Harbaugh:

Re: Epstein death.
IMO, there are many powerful individuals both public and private and/or intel agencies that had a motive to silence him. According to the links you provided homicide is suspected. I believe the calculation was made that he must not stand trial. Eliminating him would be easy. There would be no outrage from the public - just another scumbag that got jailhouse justice.
What about the guards who were asleep? I worked nightshift for years, we had the common sense to take turns napping. It wasn't a two man job keeping an eye on things. Then the security cameras suddenly quit working. How convenient. It's nonsense.

Eric Newhill

Longarch,
I was referring very specifically to individual encounters between law enforcement and citizens. Watch the video Larry embedded of Donald Lewis to understand what I mean by acting like a possessed person. I stand by what I have said, at that level.

You're talking about a much higher level view of society and I agree with you. Diversity is NOT our strength, especially when each diverse faction holds its values and perception with religious missionary zeal. We used to be bound by common values and a belief in the greatness of America and immigrants adopted those values as best they could. Since the 1960s, the idea that America is an evil place has been spreading like toxic mold and is now accepted as fact by a large proportion of the most recent two generations. It's taught in schools. Also, the exporting of solid middle class jobs has caused each of the diverse identity groups to fight harder for a piece of the remaining pie, which means seeing competing groups more as an enemy as opposed to fellow citizens. The result is what you see.

Fred

scott.s,

"the real cultural issue"

The real cultural issue is that there are only victims or oppressors, just like teacher told them.

Fred

longarch,

In Japan "Diversity is our Strength" is reserved for sloganeering in the US division of thier corporations. Borders are not open and minority groups are not given special priveleges. The same is true for almost all non-Western countries. What you are seeing is the result of a successful decades long anti-Western propaganda campaign.

Antoinetta III

If this was 100 years ago, this entire incident would never have happened. Floyd would already have been hanged for one of his previous crimes.

Antoinetta III

Terence Gore

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/sacking-of-father-daniel-moloney-mit-chaplain-archdiocese-of-boston-george-floyd/

"The priest also said, truthfully, that we don’t know that Officer Chauvin acted out of racism. It’s not clear yet what his state of mind is. The thing that we can know for sure, though, is that Chauvin’s act was evil. He also makes the perfectly true and reasonable point that police officers, who keep us safe, put themselves into situations that could brutalize their consciences. It doesn’t justify such behavior, he says, but it helps us understand how Chauvin’s killing of Floyd could have happened. We don’t know that yet, so we need to be careful about passing final judgment on either man."

Babak makkinejad

Longarch

Over the centuries of intermittent warfare in Japan, foreign wars and occupation, Japanese have come to agree on
the answer to the question "What is Justice?"

That is very rare, I think England used to be like that until the combined bloodlettings of World War I and World War II damaged that significantly.

I think in Israel, in Finland, perhaps, or in Norway, a consensus view on Justice", i.e. the proper placement of things prevails.

The Western Revolutionary Spirit, carrying it with it the Cult of Progress, as infected the minds of men all over the world.

Since no Legitimate Central Revolutionary Authority exists to adjudicate among various claims to the Revolutionary Justice or its Attainment, this search for the establishment of a Just Social and Political order will continue across the World.

In the United States, the heterogeneity of the immigrants and their world views are making things less stable and more difficult as the old consensus on Justice has clearly broken down. But US, in my opinion, is only an example of this much wider global search for Justice.

Is it Justice, for example, for Chechens to converge on Dijon to fight Arabs out of some slight to a Chechen younster and for Frenchmen to meet it with less than deadly force?

Regrettably, this Revolutionary Spirit cannot be solely defeated on the plane of ideas, in my opinion. A consensus has historically been forged through violence, most older states are products of war.

Note please also that which obtains domestically could be applied as well internationally; e.g. is the Spanish state legitimate or should it be dismantled so that each piece should go in its own way finding its own Justice, including periods of civil war so that one group of humans finally exterminate all those others with different ideas of Justice?

In fact, that is the vast global experiment that is being proposed.

Truly, may be men are only fit to live at the Pleolithic level of culture, with each band maintaining its own parochial pathetic and at times absurd notions of Justice, all the while enjoying a short, brutal and dull Life.

Eric Newhill

Wow Babak,
I am impressed with the convoluted philosophy that you use to take a simple situation into the stratosphere of complex revolutionary lingo.

Once again, The US is a constitutional democracy (or republic). People get representation in government and they get to vote for their representatives. The people want hard drugs, drunk driving and counterfeiting of the currency to be illegal. The representatives make laws making those things illegal. Once they are made illegal, it becomes law enforcement's job to arrest those engaging in those activities. Fighting with law enforcement is also illegal. The people think that is a good law too. If you engage in those illegal activities and then you fight with law enforcement when they come to arrest you, you are likely to get hurt or possibly killed. The people granted law enforcement those powers to enforce the laws the people want.

If you are a member of this society and you don't like the laws, you and like minded people should band together and appeal to your representatives to change the laws. If they won't change the laws, you get to try to elect new representatives that will. If it doesn't work out even then, you may make an appeal all the way to the Supreme Court of the US. If it still doesn't work out, then that means the laws you don't like are deemed to be within the letter and spirit of the supreme law of the land and you must live with it. If you can't live it, you can immigrate to somewhere that doesn't have those laws (good luck to you).

You don't get to fight with law enforcement. That's not how civil society works. If you want to get all Paleolithic then you will be locked away or put down,; unless there's enough of you and then you can form an insurrection and you either win or get put down.

It has nothing to do with "justice" in the way you want it to. Unless you think drunk driving, taking drugs and counterfeiting and street fighting are god given rights to free men. The old Babak clearly stated he didn't like at least a couple of those. The new Babak is coming from somewhere else entirely.

Keith Harbaugh

Mike46 and others interested in the murder of Epstein:
You might find this video from Rudy Giuliani of interest.
He clearly knows a lot about the MCC in its former condition;
maybe about its current condition, not so much.
https://youtu.be/4I-mkuQ9eq4

longarch


Eric Newhill wrote:

Watch the video Larry embedded of Donald Lewis to understand what I mean by acting like a possessed person.

I would not characterize Donald Lewis as possessed. I have some sympathy for the cops who were trying to talk him back to sobriety. They were clearly trained from faulty theory and I blame their instructors much more than I blame them. I don't know how much of Mr. Lewis' agitation resulted from his own actions. If I were a lawyer, I would not only defend Mr. Lewis, I would rouse the community to sympathize with Mr. Lewis. I don't believe the majority of the American people see Mr. Lewis as a perpetrator here; I think the majority would see him as a victim.

Fred wrote:

What you are seeing is the result of a successful decades long anti-Western propaganda campaign.

Sadly, I agree.

Babak wrote:

Japanese have come to agree on
the answer to the question "What is Justice?"

That is very rare, I think England used to be like that until the combined bloodlettings of World War I and World War II damaged that significantly.

I agree, and thank you for the historical perspective.

Eric Newhill wrote:


If you are a member of this society and you don't like the laws, you and like minded people should band together and appeal to your representatives to change the laws. If they won't change the laws, you get to try to elect new representatives that will. If it doesn't work out even then, you may make an appeal all the way to the Supreme Court of the US. If it still doesn't work out, then that means the laws you don't like are deemed to be within the letter and spirit of the supreme law of the land and you must live with it. If you can't live it, you can immigrate to somewhere that doesn't have those laws (good luck to you).

If you band together with like-minded citizens, you will have to endure illegal harassment - but the laws are only enforced when the people in power find it convenient. If you try to take your case to a higher court, the corrupt legal establishment will destroy you.

Even if you emigrate, the USA will continue to interfere in the country to which you emigrate. You might escape getting shot like Daniel Shaver (or LaVoy Finicum, and the list goes on), only to get treated like Diana Ortiz was treated -- and her treatment was paid for by the USA.

http://archive.md/ZAWSO

In particular I strongly disagree with the implication of your claim:
If it still doesn't work out, then that means the laws you don't like are deemed to be within the letter and spirit of the supreme law of the land

Technically you didn't write explicitly that injustice is the spirit, but you indicated that injustice has been deemed to be the spirit, and that sort of writing hurts America. Many, many people will miss the details of you wrote and read your words as an endorsement of injustice.

The people running the USA may have total control of the letter of the law, but they have no control over spirit. The spirit was intended by the Founding Fathers, and they would never condone what has been in the name of the laws they wrote.

Babak Makkinejad

lonarch:

The key words in E.N. statements are this:

"...If it still doesn't work out..."

which begs the question, after a number of intermediary steps, of "What is Justice?"

Eric Newhill

Longarch,
You're just another America hater.

Very well, by your own rules, if I think you've done me wrong, I'm going simply take you out. I don't want to hear any complaints or blubbering as your final utterances. I hope, for your sake, you're Billy Bad Ass enough to survive in the world you imagine as being better.

longarch

@Babak:


"What is Justice?"

The best approach to an answer that I know of was written by Emerson, and is at:

https://emersoncentral.com/texts/essays-second-series/politics/

@Eric Newhill:

You're just another America hater.

You don't speak for America. You don't get to decide who is an America hater and who is not. You don't have the right to govern anyone without their consent, and you do not have the consent of America to govern, to rule, or to judge.

I should be very grateful to have encountered your ideas, however, because they have stimulated me to reconsider the nature of "consent of the governed." Therefore, unwittingly, you have done me a great service, and if I can put my ego aside for thirty seconds, I might manage to be grateful for this good fortune. (Of course, this is the Internet, so it's not very likely that I can put my ego aside, even for thirty seconds.)

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