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05 June 2020

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A.I.S.

I mean, a certain degree of police/prison reform is actually sensible.

With this I mean:
1: Either outright ban civil asset forfeiture, or have it only be a thing if the state sues, and can prove before a court that some asset was used for criminal things (currently, the burden of proof is on the accused). Definitly dont allow police stations that do not receive regular salaries from the state and fund themselfs exclusively form civil aset forfeiture.
2: Cut down the private for profit industry.
3: Do an overhaul of what is a crime. The list of things which are crimes in the USA well, the department of justice cant actually tell you how many crimes exist in American law books.
4: Bring qualified immunity down to something that is reasonable. Ironically enough the floyd incident could agruably be protected by a reasonable interpretation of qualified immunity, but other stuff that cops pull would not.
Currently, it led to cops who outright stole 250K in dollars from a suspect get off scot free. Maybe a "reasonably competent 6 year old" standard is reasonable, a 6 year old knows that shooting a women who called 9/11 is bad, a 6 year old knows that stealing is bad, so a policemen should know this too. The victims in these cases where white, so they didnt make national news.

Mark Gaughan

Lord of the Flies by William Golding

Fred

Laura,

The Minnesota Police Academy is 16 weeks, in Michigan it is 16 weeks with a minimum AA degree to enter. Remind us what, staring in 1972 when he was first elected, almost 50 years of public service, Joe Biden has done about police training.

Tidewater

aka Patience,

The New York Times has produced a video: "8 Minutes and 46 Seconds" about the moments leading up to George Floyd's death. At about 03:18 into the video it is reported that Floyd said: "I can't breathe." At that point he was standing by the vehicle. If you've ever heard about an OD or seen someone just as they are going into the nod, it sticks in your mind. You look for them. It seems possible that the pressure on the carotid artery most likely would not have killed a slightly drunken but angry man, or how could such a technique be acceptable to the Minneapolis police to begin with? Surely something would have happened previously. Whatever else happened, George Floyd was going into an overdose.
I don't think anybody in the whole world thinks that is what killed him. Including here. I want to know more.

Marijuana is now becoming legal all over the United States. It is also routine for dealers to lace drugs including methamphetamines or cocaine with fentanyl. Fentanyl can be one hundred times more potent than morphine. In St. Paul, Minnesota, newspapers on September 28, 2019 reported the overdose of six people in less than three hours. It is surprising that they all survived, but it seems they were spotted in vehicles, on a porch, in the street. Victims reported that they thought they were doing a little cocaine. Looks to me like Minnesota has more of a problem with fentanyl than we've heard about.

To put it into context. Social or recreational use of marijuana or
cocaine has now become a game of Russian roulette.

Babak makkinejad

Longarch

I think that the influece of Purirans cannot account for the behavior of the police; excepting Canada, Costa Rica, and Chile, the countries of the New World are more crime-infested than their European counterparts.

I think also that because of the inflence of Protestanism, US has sunk a lot of money in trying to rehabilitate its convicts.

walrus

Long arch and others, how would you deal with a former athlete, high on meth, turning somersaults in the middle of the lanes of a freeway and daring cars to kill him? How would you defuse a domestic dispute involving husband wife and a rebellious teenager before it spirals into actual assault and crime? Sure, no need for professional training, anyone can fix that! We see it on the Tee Vee all the time!

Then you get the call from a real estate manager - there is a smell coming from one of his apartments which the policeman finds is from the tenant who duct taped his mouth shut then handcuffed himself three weeks ago. You had to read his suicide note to his sister. Then you dealt with a bicycle rider who forgot that the truck beside her was turning right. When hailed by witnesses, the truck driver stopped and backed up, further flattening her body to about three inches thick.

....And these are the daily occurrences BEFORE we even get to the criminal element. ....And you don’t think you need professionals? You don’t think you should have a union who fights for police welfare and conditions? Guess how many police end up broken with PTSD and/or alcoholism and suicide. as a reward for protecting the public. As my son said :” you have a reserve of ability to deal with awful things, once that tank is empty, you have to stop and do something else or you will be destroyed.

The police won’t mind if they are defunded, they just will do less and less, leaving YOU to deal with it yourself.

J

Minneapolis council members are looking at ways of abolishing the police in Minnie city. I wonder what those council members would do if a Minnie city resident decided to go cave-man on them or their family members, who would they have to turn to if they no longer had any police, Daffy Duck?

https://alphanewsmn.com/minneapolis-city-council/

scott s.

I do believe we need to take a look at how policing has evolved, and just WRT minority community relations. IMHO, too much "us vs them" attitude, and what seems to be the only priority is that Officer Friendly goes home to the wife and kids at the end of his shift. A recent op-ed in the WSJ covered criminal justice research done which showed a minority of officers received the bulk of citizen complaints in the city police forces studied. Yet, no disciplinary action was taken as police unions, police commissions or other "review" boards (which appear to have a main purpose of insulating politicians from complaints about police) blocked any action. (In my city of Honolulu, they gave the Chief of Police a $250k severance package before he was led away by the Feds. He had a task force group of officers who helped him do his dirty work. Of course when this came out thanks to the US Attorney it was all a big surprise to the city council and mayor.)

I doubt this Minneapolis cop was just having a "bad day" and was otherwise an exemplary officer. Meanwhile too many SWAT teams in tacti-cool getups serving warrants or otherwise acting like military. Seeing these cops ride around in MRAPs -- what's up with that?

That Atlantic piece does bring to mind "Gee, Officer Krupke" but I suppose West Side Story is hopelessly quaint these days.

Fred

Walrus,

"leaving YOU to deal with it yourself."

Nope, it will leave us with the trained cadres of the hard left becoming the new Justice Force controlled by a Committee of Public Safety. It's an old, old, story. It won't end well, a few generations into the future, if we capitulate.

Babak makkinejad

Tidewater

When I was a sophomore, I had a sinus problem for which I took one sudafed pill a day.

I could buy 100 of them for $ 5.00.

Now, thanks to the dopeheads, I have to show ID to purchase 20 of them.

In some meth-infested towns, pharmacies do not even carry it.

In a way, it is interesting that in US we have 2 dominant population groups: the hedonistic epicureans and the Old Testament Protestants.

Each of those two groups have achieved their goals: legalization of drugs and same-sex unions on the one side and the war against enemies of Israel on the other side.

longarch


@AIS a certain degree of police/prison reform is actually sensible.

I strongly agree. Furthermore, secular authorities should not be pressed to take over the role of preachers. We are supposed to have preachers to guide us to live in socially acceptable ways while we struggle to get right with God. Police, social workers, lawyers, and psychologists should not usurp the role of preachers.


@Scott S.


a minority of officers received the bulk of citizen complaints in the city police forces studied. Yet, no disciplinary action was taken as police unions, police commissions or other "review" boards (which appear to have a main purpose of insulating politicians from complaints about police) blocked any action

The USA started out as a small government in which powerful office-holders were accountable to the voters, and it evolved into a large public-private partnership apparently optimized for preventing accountability of the powerful.

@Babak
the influence of Puritans cannot account for the behavior of the police; ... because of the inflence of Protestanism, US has sunk a lot of money in trying to rehabilitate its convicts.

You raise good points! I should have been more accurate. Real Puritans (who wanted to purify Christianity from the excesses of Catholicism) were not the problem. I should have said that the un-Christian, joy-hating, control-freakish authoritarianism that is often called "puritan" informally is one of the problems.

in US we have 2 dominant population groups: the hedonistic epicureans and the Old Testament Protestants.

Some of the joy-hating and control-freakish authoritarians are Old Testament Protestants, but unfortunately all sorts of people - vegans, gay rights activists, Buddhists - can fall into joy-hating, control-freakish authoritarianism.

longarch


@walrus:

how would you deal with a former athlete, high on meth, turning somersaults in the middle of the lanes of a freeway and daring cars to kill him?

The first time it happens, the meth head will die quite soon, and the community will be preached at until they accept that his death was necessary. The second time it happens, the next meth head will die even sooner, and the people won't need to be preached at - they will accept that meth heads die frequently. It is a shame that meth heads endanger innocent motorists in the process.

How would you defuse a domestic dispute involving husband wife and a rebellious teenager before it spirals into actual assault and crime?

In the short run, there is no way to avoid violence. Either the family will be violent, or the cops will be violent to restrain the family. Domestic problems are only solved if 99% of the population feels social pressure to live in a way that would have been respectable to the Founding Fathers. If that means sacrificing sexual libertinism and guilt-tripping people into going to church, those are the sacrifices that must be made.


Then you get the call from a real estate manager - there is a smell coming from one of his apartments which the policeman finds is from the tenant who duct taped his mouth shut then handcuffed himself three weeks ago. You had to read his suicide note to his sister.

The police should not feel guilty about discovering a suicide, although the tenant's pastor should reprimanded for his failure to stop it in time. (And if the tenant had not been going to church every Sunday, people will shrug and say, "Well what did you expect? If you stop believing in God, you'll believe in anything - and do anything - including suicide.") If some policemen get PTSD from seeing dead bodies, those policemen can be given different jobs and their replacements can be trained better. It may be impossible for most policemen to stay in the job for more than a few years. That is fine.


you dealt with a bicycle rider who forgot that the truck beside her was turning right. When hailed by witnesses, the truck driver stopped and backed up, further flattening her body to about three inches thick.

The police are not responsible for the insane over-emphasis on car culture in the USA. If some policemen get PTSD from seeing dead bodies, those policemen can be given different jobs and their replacements can be trained better. It may be impossible for most policemen to stay in the job for more than a few years. That is fine. And while those policemen are retiring to less stressful jobs, the rest of the community will be putting pressure on urban planners to stop promoting excessive automobile culture.

....And these are the daily occurrences BEFORE we even get to the criminal element. ....And you don’t think you need professionals?

I think the current idea of "professional police" is severely misguided and corrupt. The USA has too many corrupt police, corrupt lawyers, corrupt mayors, etc. If the current concept of "professionalism" must be dismantled and replaced, that's what must be done. Quite possibly the current form of "professionalism," largely influenced by Israeli torture techniques, ought to be replaced by a very different form of "professionalism" with zero Israeli input.

Guiding people to behave in socially acceptable ways is the job of a preacher. Police were never intended to replace preachers. But what has happened is that the USA became first de-Christianized, and then outright anti-Christian, and various secular authorities were expected to take up the slack. The police should accept the sort of responsibilities outlined by Sir Robert Peel - or better yet, those outlined by Deputy U.S. Marshall Virgil Earp.

You don’t think you should have a union who fights for police welfare and conditions? Guess how many police end up broken with PTSD and/or alcoholism and suicide.

Guess how many innocent citizens get PTSD from abusive, criminal police officers who use their badges as a license to torture. Guess how many cops get reported for beating their wives (and then guess how many police beat their wives but don't get reported). Guess how many citizens get murdered by police.


as a reward for protecting the public.

False. The police do NOT protect the public. The police protect the state, and the public gets a little bit of protection as a side effect. The police are not required to protect citizens; they are required to exert violence as ordered by the state. Not only do the police murder particular citizens, the police (as currently constituted) enable subtler forms of corrupt government and organized crime.


As my son said :” you have a reserve of ability to deal with awful things, once that tank is empty, you have to stop and do something else or you will be destroyed.

I don't know of any authority who carved in stone that a police job must be a life-long vocation. If you can only work in that job for five years, that's fine, so long as you can get a different job when you leave police work.


The police won’t mind if they are defunded, they just will do less and less, leaving YOU to deal with it yourself.

And indeed, if the police stand down and leave me to deal with an emergency, I might get killed. If God has a problem with my actions, I will answer to God. The larger good of society is vastly more important than my life. But even if I get killed, there are many citizens who are morally superior to Derek Chauvin, and they are already standing up for their communities.

There are many citizens who stand together for their communities; some of them are better than Derek Chauvin, even though they are not perfect Christian role models. Recently some Hells Angels (who are not perfect Christian role models, but who are probably better than Derek Chauvin) dared some antifa to a street fight. The antifa declined. I would hope the police are replaced by something OTHER than Hells Angels ... I would prefer stalwart gun owners of the sort one finds in Idaho, such as the Machado brothers.

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