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02 May 2020

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JJackson

Coming to a theater near you the latest blockbuster from the directors who bought you no lesser hits than
'Saddam's WMDs' with camera work by the Nobel nominated 'White Helmets', 'Iranian Nukes', 'Assad the Sarin Monster' and the ever popular 'Russiagate' franchise.

Barbara Ann

Seems someone just threw a very deliberate hand grenade into US/China relations over the 'rona. The virus may have made it into the wild by accident, but this report sure as hell didn't. This intelligence leak is as subtle as a brick, perhaps by design? And just in case the intent was not blindingly obvious, right in the second paragraph we have the explainer:

"The 15-page research document, obtained by The Saturday Telegraph, lays the foundation for the case of negligence being mounted against China."
Further down the article rather speculatively describes the report as "The Western governments’ research paper". The clear intent being to present (gin up?) a united anglophone front.

Colonel, there appears to be no link to the report as yet, so I have a question: Do FVEY reports have a central point of issuance & 'brand', or can any one of the constituent agencies issue a FVEY report, is Five Eyes just cover for it popping up in Australia? Basically who might have produced this thing and can we say anything about who must have authorized its leakage? OK a few questions.

Rick Merlotti

I do not believe the five eyes. Gotta agree with mr Jackson above.

Fred

It didn't take long for the one man virology shop in Surrey to appear with his expertise, kind of like the Middle East expert who single handedly runs the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights and periodically enlightens all the world with his words of wisdom and need for global intervention. I wonder what he's up to these days, it seems kind of quite out that a way.

Godfree Roberts

Funny that the Five Eyes did not mention the fact that Francis Collins, director of the US National Institutes of Health, said the virus might have been spreading quietly in humans for years, or even decades, without causing a detectable outbreak.

Collin, is noted for his landmark discoveries of disease genes and his leadership of the international Human Genome Project. He is an elected member of the National Academy of Medicine and the National Academy of Sciences, was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom in November 2007, and received the National Medal of Science in 2009.
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3081959/coronavirus-outbreak-france-did-not-come-directly-china-gene

CNN host Chris Cuomo also said he believes there will be revelations showing the novel coronavirus was spreading in the United States as early as October. “The kids now anecdotally, Cristina believes, that at least two of them have had it in the last few months. Why? We don’t know, but atypically long-duration sinus, fever, lethargy. I think we’re going to learn that coronavirus has been in this country since, like, October, that there have been cases,” Cuomo said. “And as you guys both know, and I hear all the time from all over the country, how many people do you hear saying, ‘I think I had it, I had this and this, I lost my sense of smell and this and that, but I never got tested’? Those cases are, like, abounding all over the country,” he added. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/chris-cuomo-predicts-evidence-will-show-coronavirus-was-spreading-in-us-since-october.

Eric Newhill

I don't believe the Five Eyes, The Who, the CDC, or any other government or trans-government organization. I believe China the least. If the Five Eyes are fabricating, again, at least they are finally focusing negative attention on the right target.

Why anyone defends China escapes me entirely. I have no idea if JJackson is right or wrong and don't care. China is not a friend of the English speaking nations and has done tremendous damage to the US both directly and through its greedy English speaking proxies in government and bidness (Biden, Romney to randomly name but two of the legion).

Seanmcbride

It's possible that the intel community got Iraq and Russiagate wrong, but is getting the coronavirus right.

From the start, I strongly disbelieved the official takes on Iraq and Russiagate, but did believe that the coronavirus probably leaked from the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

Why? Common sense and gut instincts, combined with a scan of all the publicly available information.

blue peacock

Barbara Ann

You ask good questions. I'm curious why this story, and why now? Will the west take real action - covert and/or financial?

As I have stated before I think there's a great opportunity to stress the CCP financially. In particular their highly over-extended and over-levered banking system. Couple that with an industrial decoupling of the supply chains and it could have an effect.

TonyL

"A research dossier compiled by the so-called "Five Eyes" intelligence alliance states that China intentionally hid or destroyed evidence of the coronavirus outbreak, leading to the loss of tens of thousands of lives around the world"

It does bring back the memory of Office of Special Plan (OSP) by Douglas Feith before the Iraq war. That effort to demonize Iraq matches the current frenzy in assigning blame to someone else other than Trump's Administration incomppetence. I believe this Five Eyes leak is part of that effort.

Yeah, Right

I wonder if this is the same report that zerohedge discussed under the title "US Government Report Concludes Wuhan Lab 'Most Likely Source' Of COVID-19 Outbreak"

That report somehow found itself in the hands of the Washington Times. This report found itself in the hands of the Daily Telegraph.

Hmmm, someone is leaking like a sieve.

Zerohedge did let slip that the report it was referring to was compiled entirely from "open sources". Which does not inspire confidence.

I dunno. Would be nice to be able to read the report, rather than through Chinese Whispers.

The Wuhan Lab should be the source of very considerable scrutiny, for the most obvious of reasons.

But the Five Eyes must have considerable intelligence sources within the Chinese government, and if the Lab really were responsible then there would have been consternation within the CCP so profound that intel sources would have noticed.

If the intel in this report comes from sources recruited from inside the CCP then that's one thing. But if the "intel" is simply compiled by Mr Google then this report is likely to be worthless.

Horatio

Chinese response to exceptional cretins. The whole world isn't fooled anymore by gaggle of incompetents. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5BZ09iNdvo&feature=youtu.be&t=6

Yeah, Right

Just out of curiosity, but how common is it for a research document to be written as the joint product of the "Five-Eyes"?

I had always assumed that they shared intel between each other more-or-less-openly, but any reports would be the individual responsibility of each member reporting to their respective governments.

As in: while they have all shared from the same pool, it would be the US IC that writes the report that lands on Trump's desk, the Aussie IC that writes the report that Sco-Mo reads, etc.

A one-size-fits-all document seems... unlikely to me.
Or do I have this completely wrong?

turcopolier

Yeah, Right
I think you are right that it would be an unusual thing.


J

The British Government's NHS is trial running a new contact tracing app on the Isle of Wight this week. The Isle of Wight has been chosen because of its isolation and easy control-ability due to its location. The app developed by the NHS's digital arm NHSX will be using bluetooth tech to id who a person has come in contact with (they 'claim' they won't track where people are or have been, yeah right). Phones will record who they've come within 6 feet of for at least 15 minutes. If the user develops symptoms, they can inform the NHS, triggering an alert to be sent to other users whom they've come in contact with.

They claim that the app will be completly confidential and the info collected will not id the individual (yeah right).

Harlan Easley

JJackson,

I asked for a defense from you that the virus came from natural source.

You responded

"Harlan
As you seem genuinely interested in learning "

You gave the game away. Also your comment above indicates you are ideologically binded to a predetermined outcome.

I'm not saying your assessment is wrong or right. What I am saying is your ideological belief makes determining the truth impossible.

I was hoping you were credentialed. From what I read you are not. Fine. Neither am I. You do appear to be well read into the subject. It appears to be a hobby of yours.

You know as well as I that a virus ran through cell cultures or serial passage through ferrets is a method of Gain of Function research. H5N1 Bird Flu example

"Resulted in a virus that would look natural and wouldn’t appear to have been directly genetically altered, and also created a virus that was way out on its own branch of the viral family tree since those sequential passages added generations far faster than they’d naturally occur in the wild."

ancestral bat strain RaTG13 may be pertinent. Or not. On the one hand why would Dr. Shi Zhengli of Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) BSL-IV lab release this viral genome in January 2020.

When it was discovered in 2013 by her team and the RdRp sequence either was withheld or was released with different, and uncited, identifier. This was the foundation of the PREDICT program. Useless in hindsight. It is the closest bat virus we have to Sars-Cov2 at the moment.

But on the other hand why would she implicate herself and the Chinese government? Meaning why would they publish a virus they discovered in 2013 that should have been public due to the agreements on the PREDICT program. But instead of depositing the virus in a public database they did Gain of Function research and it was accidently release.

Another thought I have is why couldn't this be a third party initiation. Meaning an undisclosed third party went to Wuhan, China and released the virus in public.

Knowing full well the Chinese would be blamed. Due to the BSL labs nearby. This third party would have intelligence that may have indicated the virus they release was close to a virus being studied at these labs. Or maybe they compromised a lab worker and obtain the virus that way.

As for motive? Who the HELL knows?

I'm finding the RBM region in the coronavirus to be very interesting and indicative of possible manipulation in a lab. I will have more to say about this later.

To sum up it is impossible to determine if it came 100% from Nature unless they find the virus in a host somewhere. And since this is a huge geo-political risk I would be skeptical if they claim to find the host.

Signal and human intelligence obviously could help. Much brighter minds than mind who can comment on this blog concerning this.

Larry, does say a source claims the FBI found the virus on a Chinese National smuggling out the Sars-Cov2 virus from an American University. If true, it may bring the nation to dissolution so we the public will never hear of it.

I don't know the answer. But bats are over 1,000 km away from Wuhan so something is up.

walrus

I think it’s irrelevant where it originated assuming it’s not bio engineered. The real problem is that China appears to have deliberately shared it with the world.

Ulenspiegel

G. Roberts wrote: "Funny that the Five Eyes did not mention the fact that Francis Collins, director of the US National Institutes of Health, said the virus might have been spreading quietly in humans for years, or even decades, without causing a detectable outbreak."

It is actually clear that the virus is older, maybe not decades but at least many months or years. Expert opinion of Prof. Christan Drosten (Charite Berlins), one world's leading coronavirus scientists, is that the Chinese fur industry provided the hosts in which the bat virsus was modified and transferred to humans, Wuhan was only the largest outbreak, not the source of the virus.

One has only to check whether fur providing animals have antibodies, here Chinese authorities could do better than at the moment.

Barbara Ann

J

You previously described China's Orwellian approach to the panoptic surveillance of its citizens, which now includes health apps to identify candidates for quarantine. India seems to going the same way:

"India has ordered all public and private sector employees use a government-backed contact tracing app and maintain social distancing in offices as it begins easing some of its lockdown measures in districts less affected by the coronavirus."
The British government knows better than to try and mandate the use of such an app and I'd be very surprised if voluntary usage could reach anywhere near the level required to make contact tracing useful. The conspiracy theories about the virus being used as an excuse to tag and vaccinate us all with tracing technology is not without foundation. Over my dead body.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-india-app-idUSKBN22E07K

JJackson

Harlan
I am not ideologically blind just very wary of the intelligence services. Once bitten twice shy. I took no interest in what my government was up to in the international sphere and assumed they were generally truthful until we went to war on a lie in Iraq. Then I did I begin to look and found SST shortly after it opened and have been reading here ever since. Stutnex is another little five eyes gift in the world of viruses . I am not credentialed I did one year of cell and molecular biology at King's London and then went sailing. In 2005 I read about H5N1 and was surprised that a common seasonal virus could also come in a very high CFR and started to look online for more information and have been actively researching Zoonotic diseases ever since, mainly Type A influenzas. The internet is a wonderful gift to someone trying to understand the world if used with skepticism and caution.
You have obviously been reading, have you looked at dating of viral sequence divergence by viral single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNP) rates yet? They may help you with the date of introduction into humans of the strain we call SARS-2 and the evolutionary timeline from RaTG13 and the other SL betaCoVs.

Jack
"With US, Germany & EU should pursue forceful decoupling from China. Would be expensive but not too expensive. Corona recession unique opportunity to correct wrong path".

@axelspringer CEO Döpfner with most radical statement so far within German liberal-conservative circles.

https://twitter.com/thorstenbenner/status/1256844881059864576?s=21

Following up on the editor of Bild, the largest circulation German publication, another German publisher calling for decoupling from CCP.

Hopefully political leadership take serious action to decouple supply chains. That’s one of the best responses to the Wuhan virus.

Unlike the fifth column CCP apologists, those who have the best interests of the people and nations in the west are growing and calling for significant moves away from CCP.

The Twisted Genius

JJackson and Harlan,

I'm with you both in thinking that genomic sequencing and study will lead to answers to where and how this virus came about. Look what this science has done for the Neanderthal. Bats are all over China, not just in the south. They're in caves, forests and urban areas. Researchers have already found over 400 coronaviruses in those bats. Hell, bats are all over the US. They help keep the mosquitos out of my gazebo here in Virginia. I remember watching them fly out of the mounted moose heads in a hunting camp in northern Maine. Still, those Wuhan lab bat researchers and anyone else who helped those researchers collect and transport bats certainly could be part of the answer.

The Twisted Genius

Jack,

I'm all for decoupling our economy from China. We should start with those traitorous Waltons who built their fortune on cheap Chinese goods. We better keep an eye on those fly over country fifth columnists farmers and agro-businessmen selling American grown crops to the CCP. I'm not just being a smart ass. This business needs to be curbed for our own good.

Yeah, Right

This will piss off walrus no end, but I tend to agree with him.

Now that the DNI has conceded there was no genetic manipulation then the Sloppy-Lab-Handling versus Disgusting-Eating-Habits really doesn't make much difference.

Good for point-scoring, I suppose, and the USA could make the Chinese lose considerable "face". But little beyond that.

But walrus is also right that it makes a big difference if the Chinese government hid facts from WHO and the Atlanta CDC once it did become aware that there was a new corona-virus on the loose.

Where we differ is that he believes that to be a given, while I do not.

Yeah, Right

TTG, I believe the gene jockeys want to know if the "deadly-for-humans" mutations were already present in bats, or if the virus leapt into humans as something reasonably benign only to subsequently mutate into something deadly.

If the former then it is all but certain that Wuhan is where that jump took place.

If the latter then it could have been circulating for months or even years before - BANG! - it turned deadly.

I'm no geneticist, but I assume that it is possible to work back and come to a conclusion one way or the other.

Deap

Until we see the scorecard for all other causes of death from prior yeas and compare them to this current year, will we understand the context for this new death certificate entry: "Covid-19.

This may be better listed as "Co-incidental Covid-19 Death"; rather than a primary cause of death.

Meanwhile out West, I continue to see the obituary pages filled, often those younger than myself, listing the traditional curses that suspend our mortal coil: cancers, heart disease, accidents, falls, Alzheimers, suicide..... no "death by Covid-19".

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