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28 April 2020

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The Twisted Genius

Christian J Chuba,

You addressed the question that came to my mind. The majority of the world's travel bans and restrictions only apply to incoming flights. Most countries put no restrictions on their citizens traveling elsewhere. That's exactly what we did. As the coronavirus was spreading throughout the country, Americans were free to fly elsewhere as they pleased. Was this a case of the Trump administration "weaponizing" the virus and deliberately spreading it throughout the world? Of course not. I guarantee there would have been plenty of Democrats and probably plenty of Republicans as well who would have screamed bloody murder if Trump tried to restrict Americans' ability to travel internationally. Look what happened when he suggested quarantining NYC. I thought that was one of Trump's better ideas. Even if Trump did everything right, he would still be catching holy hell from a large segment of the population.

Who was advising Trump to minimize the threat of the virus and not to impose travel restrictions? Looks like his pencil-necked prick of a son in law was chief among them. Too bad he still listens to that twerp. The HHS and the IC were sounding alarms early on. The WHO had reservations about the effect widespread travel restrictions would have on the world economy for some reason, but they're not in the administration. If only Trump did hire only the best people.

elaine

I'm aware some ppl will be prejudiced out of hand to both the
voice of europe & epoch times, the sites carrying this documentary;
nonetheless I think it's worth watching especially by the commie
trolls as it may aid in their reeducation:) so perhaps they'll up their game a bit. I think it's worth a watch.

voiceofeurope.com/2020/04/watch-chilly-documentary-traces-the-origin-of-the-chinese-covid-10-virus/

Deap

Factor in SEA, Central America, sub-Saharan Africa and South Pacific Islands have been aggressively selling some form of anti-malaria drugs OTC for decades. Did this make a difference in Vietnam?

steve

"When Trump brought up the issue of shutting down travel to and from China, he was swimming upstream against many of his National Security advisors. But, as is also typical of Trump, he trusted his instincts and over-rode their objections. "

Why didnt he stop all travel? This was a major mistake. Every country with success either stopped all travel or quarantined everyone returning from a foreign country. I am sure he made some people happy just keeping the Chinese from coning here, but if his goal was to stop viral spread then he would have stopped Americans from traveling back and forth, or required self quarantine on return.

China released the genome on January 12 (14?). In 4 days S Korea had viable tests, designed to make sure that they would have plenty of reagents. Many other countries also had tests quickly. It took us many weeks to get any tests. On March 9th he said anyone who wants a test can have one. A lie. Up until 10-14 days ago I couldn't even reliably get a test for any of my docs or nurses who were exposed to Covid. (Couldn't get tests on many patients, which lead to people having unnecessary exposures.) We just sent them home, told them to not touch their kids and take their temperature. (This goes over well with the people who had infants.) We didnt, still dont, have enough to do effective surveillance. I live this every day (Or and ICU) and talk with my counterparts in ED, ID, hospitalists etc. I guess the usual rejoinder here is that the CDC, FDA or some other alphabet agency failed, but that goes back to leadership. Testing is a priority and when we didnt have a viable test in 7-10 days heads should have rolled.

turcopolier

Sidney Caesar

From what I hear they did not try really hard to warn Trump. It was in the PDB but was there among a lot of other things and Trump does not respect institutions. He is the center of the universe. His IC heads would have had to come to him as a group and so far as I know, they did not.

LA Sox Fan

Showing a list of half measures the Trump Administration took which, so far, has allowed over 60,000 American deaths, really isn’t proof of anything. We could come up with a longer list of everything the captain and crew on the Titanic did the day before the Titanic struck that iceberg. Those actions are meaningless because they were not effective in preventing the known possible danger in the future from becoming immediate, deadly, and killing many people needlessly.

South Korea and the US both discovered a covid-19 infected person inside their country the exact same day. South Korea took the measures necessary to stop an outbreak while the US government failed to recognize the danger and take effective action. Today, April 29, 2020, the same day the US had 60,000 deaths, South Korea has 246.

You know what’s really wrong with this country? Our true currency is lies and bullshit. Sixty thousand American are now dead. Our government has done a horrible job of preventing Covid from killing tens of thousands of people. But we can’t be honest with ourselves and admit it. Instead, we traffic in lies and bullshit.

The reason the USSR collapsed is that no one told the truth anymore. People would lie and say that problems didn’t exist. Of course, because these problems didn’t exist, they would never be fixed. So when they got worse, more lies were issues to cover up the worsening problems. The whole system collapsed as a result.

The US is in that stage now. Nothing gets fixed because the problems are said not to exist. Obama did a horrible job responding to the Great Recession. Half the county cannot admit that simple truth. Trump did a horrible job responding to Covid-19. The other half of the country can’t admit that. If we can’t even recognize incompetence when it’s right in front of our faces, there is no hope.

turcopolier

LA Sox Fan

what were the "half measures?"

Fred

LA Sox Fan,

I think your death count is off. The US averages 7,000+ deaths a day from all causes. The numbers being bandied about by the increasingly desperate propagandists only include those listed as death with this virus present in the deceased, which is an intentionally deceptive figure. On a bright note the states without democratic governors will be holding the scheduled election in November, feel free to vote, or not.

Steve,

seems the supply chain people in the hospital system you imply you work for can't order testing equipment, or face masks. I wonder how the hospitals ever performed any services with that quality of work. Can't wait to see the survival numbers once the "not soon enough" PR blitz blows out.

Christian,
"I don't know, maybe some Americans or Australians want to be able to escape...."
Americans were not and are not prevented from returning, which has been well publicized repeatedly.
"Perhaps the Chinese figured that restricting incoming travel is the responsibility of the host country and not theirs. "
The communis government of China is quite happy to engage in defacto germ warfare. The democratic governor of NY was completely opposed to a quarantine of NYC, right along with the incompetency commy mayor and the party leadership.

"Perhaps Tom Cotton should sue NYC for $2T"
He should ensure their extortionist bailout request in the next bail out bill gets denied. Then he should propose a decade long ban on travel from China for any reason and cancellation of all visas currently held by non-diplomats from that country. Then investigate all federal funding to all health care systems, companies, NGO and universities that dealt with the Wuhan virus lab and follow that up with an audit of other federal grants or other funding to see where all the rest of the money went.

BillWade

Our Governor here in Florida is starting phase one on Monday, it's not much but it's something, the Miami area is not included yet as so many NY'ers fled to there, wish they would have stayed home.

Fred, I don't get you. The Chinese that visit SE Asian countries during Chinese New Years are not the most sophisticated types. They are for the most part bumpkins that travel in groups, they stay at Chinese owned hotels, eat at Chinese owned restaurants, and don't spend a lot of money. They just can't go to the airport in Bangkok or Saigon and board a flight to the USA, a visa is needed to visit here. What we in the USA need to do is impress upon the ASEAN countries just how destructive the Chinese can be, one only has to look to Sihanoukville to see what an absolute mess the Chinese can make in short order. We now have a real opportunity to decrease Chinese influence in the region, we should take total advantage of it.

Yeah, Right

walrus: "By Jan 1 China knew it was a new SARS - like Coronavirus. What they told the WHO was that they didn’t know what it was"

I have gone back and read again that article that you posted to TonyL on another thread
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/how-early-signs-of-the-coronavirus-were-spotted-spread-and-throttled-in-china
and I am perfectly willing to accept that on December 31 the Chinese informed the WHO of "of cases of pneumonia of unknown etiology (unknown cause)"

According to that link lab test results were "reported to the Wuhan Municipal Health Commission as early as Jan 1" i.e. those results were unknown to the Beijing authorities at the time they informed the WHO.

The first reporting of virus testing to the central govt was on Jan 6 (Professor Zhang Yongzhen of Fudan University in Shanghai) and was then relayed to the public on Jan 9.

So it would appear that on Jan 1 the central authorities in Beijing told the WHO they did not know what the cause was because..... they did not know what the cause was. (The Wuhan authorities did, but they didn't report it to the National Health Commission).

But my point remains: despite what Larry claims the Chinese authorities where NOT "on notice that they had a big problem as early as 3 January". They had a cluster of 44 patients, showing pneumonia systems that they could not explain. That's all the Beijing authorities knew.

Even by Jan 9 all the central authorities knew was that this was a new virus.

They were still dealing with cases numbering in the dozens. They were still unsure if this was animal-to-human or human-to-human. And they certainly did not suspect that asymptomatic human-to-human transmission was happening - that came much, much.

As far as they knew they were on top of it. It wasn't until Jan 20 that they realized they weren't, and they ordered the shutdown three days later.

Yeah, Right

Christian J Chuba / TTG yes, thank you both for expressing this much better than I have.

When Wuhan was put into lockdown Chinese outside of that lockdown zone were allowed to travel overseas. That is a fact.

I am willing to point a finger of blame at the Chinese government if they had continued to allow international flights out of WUHAN after it had been placed into lockdown.

Doing THAT would have been damning, even sinister.
But I do not believe that to be the case.

Everyone inside Wuhan was in lockdown.
Everyone outside Wuhan was not.

It really is as simple as that, and reading anything more into that is unwarranted.

Eric Newhill

LA Sox Fan,
You are believing in fairy tales.

One of the major reasons that we have 60K deaths is that the count is false. Dies of cancer in hospice, but tested positive? Covid death. ODs on illicit drugs, body is tested and is positive for covid? Another covid death. Died in February with flu-like symptoms and never tested? Chalk it up to covid. There's a lot of that happening now. It is a fact.

Policy-wise, a significant number of real covid deaths on the east coast are because democrat leadership failed to protect the elderly in nursing homes; actually, worse, they killed them, de facto, deliberately, by placing seniors that had tested positive in the homes with everyone else. Home after home has been hit hard this way. Putting infected people into homes was/is policy. That it was done is fact.

NYC airports continued to receive flights from foreign countries long after the virus was a known problem (I think they still do). Airplanes and airports are perfect places for viruses to spread. Who's idea was it to keep those flights coming in?

NYC subways remained open the entire time everyone else was locked down. Those filthy things are virtual petri dishes for a contagious virus. Masks will not protect anyone from the virus. The virus can go through the typical jerry rigged mask. The virus can live up to 3 days on surfaces. It is on the hands that fiddle with the mask. The infected masks, hands and items purchased at stores go into the home and infect everyone in it.

None of that is on Trump. As long as the virus was here, the above insured that it would infect 25% of the population. What didn't have to happen was the increased deaths of the elderly.

What kind of malicious idiot places infected people in nursing homes?

Yeah, Right

Deap: "Did this make a difference in Vietnam?"

I don't believe so. I was in Vietnam in the 2nd week of Match and there was no discussion about anti-malaria drugs either in the media or amongst the people I spoke to.

The Vietnamese govt were keeping the population very well informed about what was happening. I received at least one SMS a day reminding me to follow the health guidelines.

Vietnam stayed on top of this using very old-school tactics: Minimize gatherings. Wear a face mask. Wash your hands. Temperature checks at all govt buildings. Wash your hands. Very comprehensive back-tracking (including the media) for any positives. Wash your hands.

There were zero cases of Vietnamese-to-Vietnamese transmission while I was there: every case was the result of contact with a tourist. As far as I know that is still true.

Vietnam stayed on top of covid-19 by simply not allowing it to get established in the country.

Eric Newhill

Steve,
How is testing a priority? What does that get you? Something like 20% to 25% of the population has contracted the virus. Overwhelmingly, they are fine. The virus won't hurt children and barely is a problem for healthy adults. It should have been a no-brainer to quarantine nursing homes and the elderly staying in their own homes and for the medical community (not including some recent third world immigrant nurses aid) to provide safe services to them. But people like you couldn't conceive of doing that. In NYC they discharge infected people back into nursing homes.

Then your physician comrades made it worse by closing your practices. People with all kinds of chronic and developing conditions can't see a doctor. They are dying for lack of care.

I've been in the data this week and I am appalled at how lame brained and destructive the medical community has been. Even though elective surgeries have been stopped along with basic doctor visits, the physician community is still going to manage to kill 300,000 this year, like it does every year, via medical malpractice and medical errors.

JJackson

Walrus
Where are you getting the info re. WHO and Melbourne? I had not come across this. I do not understand how the group in Melbourne could say what the virus was unless they had been provided with a sequence or had live virus. At this point there was no virus outside of China if they had a sequence it must have been provided by scientist in China and as they have the worlds top experts on SARS like Corona viruses and the WHO would have no problem identifying a new beta Corona virus (hell I could have done that for them it would take me 30mins). It does not make a lot of sense.

Harlan
As you seem genuinely interested in learning and as you worked in a microbiology lab try reading http://virological.org/t/tackling-rumors-of-a-suspicious-origin-of-ncov2019/384
You are wrong to think I deny lab escapes I have been banging that drum for years. The anthrax attack in the US was due to a screened worker at a BSL3 lab who had some kind of a breakdown and stole and posted of the anthrax.
This link is to a post of mine at the end of January which explains some of the genetics and includes plots of RaTG13 against SARS-CoV-2 across the whole genome.
https://flutrackers.com/forum/forum/the-pandemic-discussion-forum/jjackson-s-workshop/826486-covid-ncov-preliminary-thoughts-jjackson-personal-opinion
The second link looks at RaTG13 and other sequences and has many links to more details.
https://flutrackers.com/forum/forum/the-pandemic-discussion-forum/824873-discussion-2019-ncov-genetics

Fred
The gain of function moratorium was due to Fouchier and Kawaoka's ferret experiment with H7N9 influenza.

EO
What were the old WHO guidelines? I have been following their output and they have been banging the 'Test, contact trace and isolate' drum for as long as I can remember.

Fred

JJackson,

That's a nice official way of saying the ban on doing those in the US was by the Obama administration because of repeated lab containment failures. Apparently NIH under Fauci found a way to circumvent that restriction in US by using a Chinese lab. Similar curcumventions of prohibited behavior happened before, Iran-Contral comes to mind. It happens in business all the time, it's called fraud and usually just involves embezzeling money and not creating a global pandemic that kills thousands.

akaPatience

PARTISAN HYPOCRITES, get over it and get f-ing real and stop with the gaslighting -- I'm so sick of hearing and reading that the POTUS has been negligent, incompetent and has blood on his hands, when PARTISANS irrationally CONTINUE TO PUSH BACK on policies and/or treatments that can be of help, simply because they're mentioned or endorsed by Trump. His administration has been damned good if not 100% perfect (which would be impossible in handling something of this nature) when it comes to COVID-19.

OFF TOPIC: Larry, we could use an update on the Honey Badger's tremendous progress on the Flynn case. Yowza, heads should roll but I won't hold my breath. Still, I'm guessing there's at least a chance the general may be able to become financially whole again in civil proceedings. And I suppose, in lieu of incarceration, maybe it would be a sweeter justice if the malefactors were dragged through court and rendered bankrupt.

Fred

BillWade,

"The Chinese that visit SE Asian countries during Chinese New Years are not the most sophisticated types. "

Thanks for the cultural anthopology lesson. Remind me again what "Asymptomatic Transmission". Never mind, here you go:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2009758

I wonder if that happens in a crowded airport by people leaving Wuhan province and only traveling regionally. In additon to others flying to Italy, or elsewhere, and then flying to the US or asymptomaticly transmitting it to those who do. As to your other point, good luck getting the folks in Asia to listen to a retiree in Florida bemoan overdevelopment due to out of towners with money.

Yeah, Right,

"I was in Vietnam in the 2nd week of Match"
Looks like you got in just in time to avoid the ban. Imagine that. Did they accept your health declaration or was it diplomatic travel?
http://news.chinhphu.vn/Home/Health-declaration-MANDATORY-for-all-incoming-travelers/20203/39072.vgp
Nice info in their on the escalation of the virus in Vietnam, including numbers affected, which don't happen to match yours. Of course "Vietnamese-to-Vietnamese transmission" won't happen if you blame it all on the foreigners.
http://news.chinhphu.vn/Home/Govt-chief-warns-of-risk-of-COVID19-spread-to-communities-due-to-influx-of-travelers/20203/39310.vgp
More.
http://news.chinhphu.vn/Home/VN-HALTS-entry-to-all-foreigners-due-to-COVID19/20203/39326.vgp

I thought you got banned, though not for being a communist propagandist. Thanks for the police state advice. The pro-communist left here in the US agrees with you on media tracking - though they are especially concerned about those expressing ideas about liberty, freedom, and such things they don't have so much of in Vietnam, though they still have some of in Sydney. Enjoy it while it lasts.

Yeah, Right

JJackson I suspect walrus' info is from here:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-29/wuhan-coronavirus-created-in-australian-lab-outside-of-china/11906390

Note that this involved cloning the virus, not "identifying its type".

Australia did not have its first case of covid-19 until January 25, and the Peter Doherty Institute were culturing it by January 29 at the latest, which is a very noteworthy achievement indeed.

But that can't be claimed as "identifying its type" since the Chinese had already released online the entire DNA sequence by January 12

Yeah, Right

Eric Newhill "Dies of cancer in hospice, but tested positive? Covid death."

Untrue. AFAIK every country follows the WHO recommendation for categorizing Covid-19 deaths.

It is this: A COVID-19 death is defined for surveillance purposes as a death resulting from a clinically compatible illness in a probable or confirmed COVID-19 case, unless there is a clear alternative cause of death that cannot be related to COVID disease (e.g., trauma). There should be no period of complete recovery between the illness and death.

Your example: "Dies of cancer in hospice, but tested positive?"

Cancer is not a "clinically compatible illness", and most definitely is an "alternative cause of death".

Honestly, Eric, it is not OK to simply make stuff up.

Yeah, Right

Interesting article by Vijay Prashad discussing the length of time it took WHO to announce a pandemic
https://peoplesdispatch.org/2020/04/29/why-did-the-world-health-organization-wait-until-march-to-declare-a-global-pandemic/

The part that is especially relevant to this thread related to air traffic. This part in particular:
"The North American and European states, in particular, insisted that the declaration of a PHEIC or global pandemic only be made after it was clear that air travel and trade would not be unduly interrupted. This restriction, essentially the core foundations of globalization, has constrained the WHO since 2005."

Make of it what you will, but that is food for thought, and the article as a whole seems credible to me.

English Outsider

Mr Jackson –

I’ve taken current best practice as that laid out here –

https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/who-china-joint-mission-on-covid-19-final-report.pdf

But it’s the history we’re looking at here and on that I'd welcome correction if I’ve set it out wrong in my initial comment to Mr Johnson above.

Here’s the story from way back, summarised by Dr North. Dr North is the infection control expert referred to above who has been looking into the background to HMG's planning for this crisis. My bracketed insert -

“However, I am tending to the view that the first mistake (in the UK handling of this pandemic) in a fatal cascade started with the promulgation by the World Health Organisation of the 2005 International Health Regulations.

"It was these which, for the first time, specifically listed pandemic influenza and Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS) as potential "events of international public health concern". This formal status required member nations to "develop, strengthen and maintain… the capacity to detect, assess, notify and report" these diseases, and then to the develop "the capacity to respond promptly and effectively to [the] public health risks".

"This led to the rash of the preparedness plans produced by members, including the UK, then under the Blair government, supposedly based on WHO guidelines. Where it all went wrong, in my view, is that members were allowed to produce influenza plans and use them as the template for dealing with SARS which, as it now transpires, demands a very different approach.

"To that extent, we might have the right plan – for influenza – but it is being used to fight the wrong disease. Covid-19 is not influenza - it is a SARS. And as we record 47,806 cases and 4,934 dead, that represents the true failure, and why we are now having to embark on costly lockdowns.”

http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=87569

The “were allowed” indicates a failure on the part of WHO. But this not –

“At the heart of the government's current difficulties is this core error, repeated not once but many times. It was missed by a succession of experts, the civil servants and politicians, none of whom thought to refer back to the original WHO regulations which categorised SARS separately from influenza.”

http://www.eureferendum.com/results.aspx?keyword=World%20Health%20Organisation


The disaster not helped in the European case by this –

“There were plenty of other mistakes, not least the EU's European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control reporting on 14 February (by which time the UK had reported nine cases) that, "the risk associated with SARS-CoV-2 infection for the EU/EEA and UK population is currently low".”

http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=87569


So the reaction was generally slow and in any case the plans were for the wrong sort of pandemic. It's a point repeated here -

" .. my main findings are that many of the problems encountered by the government stem from its failure to prepare for a SARS epidemic, instead relying on a pandemic influenza plan which, in the event, has proved dangerously inappropriate for dealing with the Covid-19 outbreaks."

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=87593#disqus_thread


That, as accurately as I can summarise it, is the planning history for the UK. In the case of the US, am I right in harking back to Dr Fauci's earlier comments and seeing in those earlier comments the same "dangerously inappropriate" approach to this pandemic?

The German case is perhaps different. It looks as if they are prepared to make do with mitigation but are doing that so thoroughly that they could in fact be going for suppression. Either way they're showing the rest of us in Europe up and even if their efforts in the end aren't effective they'll have had a damn good try.

Where I think WHO itself went incontestably wrong is in the point picked up by TTG above. Travel bans, or rigorous quarantining of travellers from areas where the infection is present. Also possible that WHO was not fast enough in alerting the West that this disease had some especially dangerous transmission features.

All that is a layman's summary based on what I've read from various experts so far: planning for this disease was a shambles in the UK and in some other Western countries. That planning background accounts for the initial uncertain handling of the crisis in many countries.

As far as is possible to determine at this early stage, does that summary hold good in the light of your closer knowledge?

Laura Wilson

Intelligence agencies are only as good as the people they report to...if no one is listening or reading or paying attention...stuff happens. Given our current situation, I'm not sure it matters when or who or how the virus started because no one was home when the information was shared. And, yes, the impeachment was going on at the same time but that is an excuse not a reason.

Deap

Sidney Caesar: How does the following report fit into your historical revisionist anti-Trump agenda, when Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi in full public view tore up President Trump's State of the Union speech declaring his entire address to the Nation to be a "manifesto of untruths".

From Daily Wire: "On February 4, President Trump delivered his State of the Union Address, during which he addressed the threat to America from the coronavirus, asserting, “Protecting Americans’ health also means fighting infectious diseases. We are coordinating with the Chinese government and working closely together on the coronavirus outbreak in China. My administration will take all necessary steps to safeguard our citizens from this threat.”

Diana Croissant

I am not an intelligence expert; I am a mere ex-public school teacher. All I can do is base my opinion on my understanding of human nature, an understanding based on a career of more than several decades of dealing with all forms of human behavior.

Here is my feeling, based on that experience:

I do remember all the arguments that sided with China claiming that the spread to the U.S. was not deliberate. But I do not remember arguments explaining their efforts to stop the spread to the U.S. That does not mean they deliberately spread the virus to the U.S. It does mean they didn't seem to care enough to try harder to stop the spread.

In addition, I remember their rushing to Italy as it was one of the first countries to be greatly overwhelmed by the spread of the virus. They rushed in with all sorts of help for Italy immediately as a show for their "great and sincere remorse for their "mistake. (though it also seemed to be an effort to show that the mean Americans were blaming them for a mistake they had no control over.

I remember a young girl who used to fall constantly while attempting to do some maneuvers on the rink. She always claimed afterwards that she meant to fall, that her falling was not a mistake.

So, was the spread to the U.S. a simple mistake on China's part? Or was the spread to our country a mistake that they meant to make, as that little girl always claimed her mistakes were deliberately made? Or was it a mistake that they simply weren't that contrite about since we had the audacity to cut off travel from China?

Who cares what answer you decide is correct. China was incompetent and was experimenting with things they should have been far more careful about but doing so without any sort of concern for mere individual humans, as every communist dictatorship does not care for its Useful idiots?

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