« Did Joe Biden's Former IT Guy Masquerade as Guccifer 2.0? by Larry C Johnson | Main | This Falcon 9 booster is going up for the fifth time. »

12 March 2020

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

Eric Newhill

Sir?

That's what I've been talking about. The Turks were never called to account for any of that. They think they are clever enough to get away with it again.

I grew up listening to my paternal grandparents, who survived (barely) all of that. My grandfather was in his teens at the time and understood what was happening. He insisted it was jihad and not whatever lame excuse the Turks gave after the fact.

Kick them out of NATO. Now. Kill them ruthlessly when they enter Syria.

Vegetius

Roll them back east of the Byzantine Straits.

Serge

I think Erdogan is severely underestimating the potential for blowback in the form of more and more everyday Turks becoming jihadis. Real jihadis, not the TFSA formulation. He is setting up an incubator here. IIRC Turkey was the second largest source country of foreign fighters to IS. In late 2016 when IS burned the two Turkish soldiers alive on camera in retaliation for the battle of Al Bab, it was a fellow Turk doing the burning.

Diana Croissant

I am happy I got to visit Istanbul before this return to idiocy. I was there when the many of the people would reassure us Westerners that they were "not religious." Most of the tourists in our hotel were vacationers from England and other parts of Europe.

During one conversation I had with the concierge in our hotel, he told me he had learned his English studying in America. He made it clear to me that I should be grateful that I could return to America.

turcopolier

James TDS! Nationalism is not fervent Islamism. The latter has universal demands. If you do not see that, you are hopeless.

Barbara Ann

Even accounting for Erdogan addressing the faithful in this particular audience, this is indeed instructive – and shocking.

Allah may have granted His permission for future victories in Syria, but I can't help feeling that the true leader of the Sunni 'umma should not also need to meekly seek the permission of rather less divine authorities.

How much longer can Erdogan continue juggling the roles of pragmatic politician and aspirant head (presumably divinely ordained) of a new Caliphate? The 'umma will surely be disappointed when Allah's will is further frustrated by the kuffar Putin. How much frustration will they put up with before they decide they need a different leader?

Also, FWIW, as Yaakov Apelbaum has been quoted in 2 successive SST posts I though I ought to find out more about him. Turns out he has a wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Appelbaum

Stephanie

Greenmantle

Leith

"The kuffar are we, his NATO allies."

Yes.

But in this case, given the October 2019 timeframe, I suspect the particular 'kuffar' Erdogan was talking about were the Kurds of Syria. October 2019 was when he had the Turkish Army and their jihadi allies launch a cross-border military operation into northeast Syria. At that time Erdogan's so-called Operation Peace Spring (Barış Pınarı Harekâtı) killed 500+ 'kuffar' (mostly civilians), wounded another 1500, and displaced 300,000. They are still occupying Tel Abyad, Ras al-Ayn, and all the land between those two cities.

turcopolier

Leith

"I suspect the particular 'kuffar' Erdogan was talking about were the Kurds of Syria." The Kurds you are talking about are Sunni. Kuffar refers to unbelief from the point of view of the denouncer, not to politics.

Leith

Many Kurds are devout Sunni. However the Erdogan point of view is that those Kurds of the YPG (or PKK as he calls it) are godless unbelievers.

Speaking of politiics: What is your opinion of the split between Erdogan and his former AKP allies Ali Babacan and Ahmet Davutoğlu. They are reportedly trying to form new political parties in competition with Erdogan's AKP. Can they make a dent in his popularity and rein in some of his more aggressive policies? Babacan's DEVA party supposedly is full of technocrats. I have not heard much of Davutoğlu's Future Party, however they have denounced the lack of rights for the Kurds and other minorities. Unfortunately for both parties the next election in Turkey is not scheduled until 2023.

turcopolier

Leith

Yes. He would claim that to be true. The wiki on "kufr" points out that there many possibilities for denouncing someone as "kaffir" depending on the takfiris personal predilections. An American army colonel converted to Islam called me a Kaffir at a Jordanian standing up party and King Hussein rebuked him on the spot saying that it was a shameful thing to say that of a brother officer who was a Christian. The Jordanians all agreed that was so. Hussein was an Alid so I will accept his opinion.

turcopolier

Barbara Ann

There are two of these. This one spells his name "Apelbaum" and is evidently not the nutty one. It was an excellent article.

Barbara Ann

Colonel

I agree the article was excellent and I must apologize, as these do appear to be 2 very different people.

Yaacov is an interesting fellow with a side interest in artistic home improvements.

http://www.yaacovapelbaum.com/RelatedLaborOfLove.htm

Kunuri

I just want to say hello to you all my gray bearded friends, and perhaps gray haired friends like Barbara Ann. If not, I use the term only for respect for her wisdom.

I live here in Turkey, Istanbul, and a proud Turkish-American. The Kemalist kind and American-wise a true constitutionalist...I have been a follower of Col. Lang and his site since 2007. I have seen much wisdom here over the years as well as much nonsense. I am usually overwhelmed by the quality of comment here so i normally limit my comments over subjects i know most about, unlike many. Things about Turkey is one, but unfortunately comments about my field of interest does not come about very often, Production Design for film, period pieces in specific.

All this is so sad, Turkey has such a great potential and great people, as i witness it everyday. You may not notice it, but there are very many, enlightened, rational and modern people here. The middle agers will lose eventually, they just had to have their day in the last two decades, just to show the general population how right was Ataturk's way was. As an example, only those who experience the horror of war know and appreciate the true value of peace. Trust me all of you, this will pass, political Islamists will be proven to be the duds that they are, and Turkish people will prove that they are not the barbarians the whole world makes them out to be, and will face its past with the same bravery that the Germans and the Japanese did after WWII.
Respects to all after a long absence
Kunuri

ex PFC Chuck

Reply to: ked | 12 March 2020 at 06:18 PM

ked, I recently stumbled on a book that goes into this issue in depth. It is entitled The Long Southern Strategy: How Chsing White Voters In The South Changed American Politics, by Angie Maxwell and Todd Shields. I've only read the 35 page introduction so far but it provides a pretty good summary the rest of the book.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/44765473-the-long-southern-strategy

turcopolier

kunuri

Glad to have you back. I see that Sultan Tayyip's government is now trying to make the cease fire line along the M-4 into a permanent arrangement. IMO this is a transparent effort to try to hang on to northern Idlib with an eye to eventual annexation.

Barbara Ann

Kunuri

Respects to you too. I blush at your praise, as I most assuredly do not deserve it. My observations on Turkey as an outsider are no substitute for first-hand accounts and I'd love to hear more here from yourself and others actually living with the burden of Islamist tyranny. Turkey is a great country and I pray that her good people see the truth; that Erdogan is jeopardizing all that Ataturk accomplished. Good luck & best wishes my friend.

Kunuri

Barbara Ann,

Thank you.

And Albayim, no, Mr. Abdulhamit The IIIrd will not be able to hang on to Idlib. Turkey at large does not need more land. There is nothing there Turkey doesn't already have. Oil? Olive oil? Educated population? No. And no, Turkish population is no longer willing to exchange the lives of young soldiers for land.

No, not one person in Turkey wants that blighted part of Syria, trust me you. For every little port of Western Mediterranean Syria there are 20 in Turkey. No one wants that shitty land of Idlib here. No one here wants Islamist pseudo refugees here, who have no qualifications for any kind for production capacity, and
to top it all of , have no desire to work and better themselves. My neighborhood is full of them.

OK, so why this insistence on these fundamentalist Islamist groups in northwestern Syria?

Because the current regime, sees them as the image that they would like to see in Turkey ultimately. But hello, it will never happen, Ataturk has set roots that go very deep, thankfully and will never go back. That's why i keep saying this is not going to go for too long, you all hang back on your collective judgments for now.

Stupid is as stupid does, and ignorant are stupid, i, and we live it here, it is even obvious even to the ignorant, gullible but ultimately level headed common sense Turkish masses. But really, no one wants Idlib in Turkey. No one wants Turkish Mehmetcik to die for Syrian land. A very great part of Turkish people want to be part of the modern Western world. No Turkish people want to be a pariah of the world. All young people here want to move forward, invent stuff, make movies, create apps and really move forward. You all, please think of Turkey and Turkish people really largely consisting of these people and not the fachist Islamic mollas here in charge.

different clue

Kunuri,

I hope it works out as you predict. In the meantime, stay safe.

turcopolier

ked

Cultural relativist bullshit. For people like you going to McDonald's and boiling your neighbor up as a meal are both just lunch.

Jane

No, We should NOT throw Turkey out of NATO right now. With Turkish-Russian relations in tatters, the mere suggestion that they may be divorced from NATO is a useful threat. What we SHOULD do is withdraw our planes and any sensitive materials at Incirlik. Didn't Germany move its planes to Jordan? Unfortunately, Erdo may get more American missiles for his Syria gambit IF/IF he sends the S-400s back to Russia.

He is unrestrained in the way he talks about and insults his European and American allies. These allies should make it clear that this language is dangerous and that we cannot do business as useful if he does not treat us as allies, not foes.

On another front, Davutoglu and Babacan cannot work together for a lot of reasons, but in any case, anyone who tries to vote Erdo out must surely NOT want AKP circa 1990 to replace it.

I can only imagine how uncomfortable both Erdo and secular and CLEAN CHP municipal mayor Ekrem Imamoglu must have been sharing a stage and with Erdo spouting dangerous religious nonsense. Losing Istanbul and the other major cities in the local elections was a blow he hasn't recovered from.

This means that an important cash cow for his cabal of construction company bosses has been lost, as have the "charitable foundations" his family and friends have used for their own purposes. Imamoglu has cut out that theft and much else. If these new mayors prove themselves, it may make life really difficult for the AKP in the future.

Erdo has sent his modern day Syrian bash-bazouks off to make the lives of Libyans miserable. What will he do with them when that mission ends?

Ishmael Zechariah

Kunuri,
Great to hear from you. Be safe.
Ishmael Zechariah

Jane

Kuffar has meant different things in different places and times. Mohammad made it clear he was referring to polytheists like the ones running the Kaaba, not monotheists. In others, it included Christians who were ENEMIES they were fighting, to include those who would not surrender to the Muslims during a war of territorial expansion or who attacked them. It did not include Christians allies in these conflicts. If you look at the wars in Spain, there were Christian armies and Muslim ones sometimes fighting against similar allegiances. Likewise, in the Med, you have the Ottomans, French and others against the Habsburgs of Spain and Austria in the early modern era. [The 400 year treaty concluded by France and Sulieman the Magnificent lasted nearly 400 years til Napoleon invaded. Britain helped the Ottomans out when they sought to remove Napoleon's forces from Egypt...and I could go on to include WWI, with German and Austrian allies. When criticized by Islamists, government's reach for the texts that emphasize the different circumstances in which non-Muslims are not in Dar al Harb to include their own Christian citizens and allies, etc. Nowadays, many salafi-jihadis groups use the term to describe any Muslim that does not agree with them.

One particularly nasty thing that Erdo did during the Gallipoli victory celebrations with foreign officials...most of whom were in Armenia commemorating the genocides, was to eliminate the names of the non-Muslims from the traditional list of martyrs, which included Christians and Jews. When the Jewish community held their own ceremony at a cemetary, only one Turkish official attended and then only in his personal unofficial capacity. A tour of Gallipoli today would leave a tourist with the impression that the Ottoman troops there were majority Turkish, which the majority were not if one looks at which contingents fought there. In fact, the multi-lingual [Turkish, Kurdish, Arab among others] nature of the forces was a real challenge to senior leadership.

Over the decades of secular rule in Turkey, with ethno-nationalism as the ideology, the terms jihad and shahid were transformed into sacrifice for the Turkish/Turkish nation. How much of this has been taken out of schoolbooks, i do not know.

The comments to this entry are closed.

My Photo

May 2020

Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat
          1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31            
Blog powered by Typepad