"Can the US win in Afghanistan?" IQ Squared Debate - 2009 (Republished 12/15/2019)

The Washington Post  has been publishing a series of articles based on "leaked" US government documents concerning a government investigation into our operations in and government lies about Afghanistan.

I participated in the linked debate at NYU in October 2009.  I think it is interesting to compare what was said then to the situation now.  My little talk is linked in the top row second from the left.   pl   

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=%22america+cannot+and+will+not+succeed+in+afghanistan%2fpakistan&qpvt=%22america+cannot+and+will+not+succeed+in+afghanistan%2fpakistan&view=detail&mid=7DAE3516F3FE932C26117DAE3516F3FE932C2611&FORM=VRDGAR

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/investigations/afghanistan-papers/afghanistan-war-confidential-documents/#nav 

Comments

[Babak Makkinejad]

In the light of the Algeria's history since 1830, I am doubtful that any such mission, carried out by a Christian power, would have any chance of success, regardless of duration or personal commitment of those who would carry out such policies.

[Babak Makkinejad]

Safavid ruled Afghanistan for more than 200 years. The successor states ruled Herat and Farah, even longer. It is possible to rule Afganistan but not as a European state.

[Seward]

It seems unlikely to me, and contrary to everything that I've I've read about North Korea, that they intend to commit national suicide by attacking us. Their nuclear arms, therefore, are only a threat to the U.S. if we attack them first. They are a deterrent against us attacking them, as we've threatened to do as long as I can remember (I can remember the war), and which we still do.

[Factotum]

Small book: The Way of the Pashtun. When an enemy is defeated, he must come on his knees and eat grass. Then he is embraced as a friend.

[Factotum]

I believe the US stayed in Afghanistan in an attempt to stop the poppy-heroin trade ravaging our inner US cities. Stop the source, stop the sales, stop the need - hit it on all fronts. But it is intractable and the money buys too much protection. Plus wasn't there something about an oil pipeline through Uzbekistan?

[A.I.S.]

Given the atrocious Taleban behaviour towards Iranian diplomatic personal in Kabul after they took it, it would have been prudent indeed. Although it is my understanding that the Iranians did end up prefering the Najibs over the Talibs, which was why the Talebs slaughtered the Iranian embassy in Kabul.

The Najibs were, to the best of my knowledge, quite willing to show Moscow the bird if they perceived to be capable of getting away with it. They would have probably welcomed more Iranian assistance against a joint threat, and became more independent of Moscow due to now having 3 patrons. Heck, this could have made the independent enough to appeal to China for a 3rd patron.

[turcopolier]

All

Many of you should stop frequenting this site. You are the most committed sort of economic determinist. You believe that man DOES live by bread alone and I find that annoying and do not want to endure reading such stupidity every day. People of that sort believe that the US fought in VN for ten plus years to control the French owned rubber plantations and the endless supply of fish sauce. They also believe that the US spent a trillion dollars in Afghanistan so that parties unknown in the US could sell heroin world wide. Idiots.

[English Outsider]

Colonel - I again watched the video you put up yesterday and it again reminded me of some hard hitting comments I'd read a long time ago about the UK part in that conflict. They came from the UK Brexit authority, Dr North, who used to write extensively on defence matters, focusing, if memory serves, mostly on equipment failures.

Unexpectedly I found Dr North returning to the subject today and if appropriate it might supplement the comments on your video by giving an (acerbic) view of the UK part of the enterprise.

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=87457#disqus_thread

That video. I do not think those men were truly listening to what you said. I think they were literally unable to take in anything that went against the picture they had built up. Scary.

[oldman22]

Ron Paul comments:
"Falsely selling the Afghanistan war as a great success was a bipartisan activity on Capitol Hill. In the dozens of hearings I attended in the House International Relations Committee, I do not recall a single “expert” witness called who told us the truth. Instead, both Republican and Democrat-controlled Congresses called a steady stream of neocon war cheerleaders to lie to us about how wonderfully the war was going. Victory was just around the corner, they all promised. Just a few more massive appropriations and we’d be celebrating the end of the war.

Congress and especially Congressional leadership of both parties are all as guilty as the three lying Administrations. They were part of the big lie, falsely presenting to the American people as “expert” witnesses only those bought-and-paid-for Beltway neocon think tankers."

http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2019/december/16/afghanistan-war-the-crime-of-the-century/

[oldman22]

In 2002 I had access to the internet and read news sources widely.
Knight-Ridder regularly reported on Iraq and the arms inspections while NYT/WaPo/WSJ printed USA propaganda uncritically.
Remember oh so well, going to see my friend who worked as a stock broker, and no one in the office was working, they were all watching the smart bombs explode, celebrating like it was the 4th of July. None of them had heard of Knight-Ridder, none of them had any doubt that USA was saving civilization on earth from Saddam's nuclear arsenal.

[John Ison]

I can think of 3 with English subtitles:
"The 9th Company"
"The Beast of War"
"Gruz 300"

[Serge]

Has anyone read "Ghost Wars" by Steve Coll? Great book on the 80s-90s period in Afghanistan, rise of the Taliban, and events leading up to 9/11. I read in the news this week that a lone Taliban wiped out an entire unit of ANA in an "insider attack", killed two dozen(1 survivor) before loading up all the unit's kit in a humvee and driving off to the Taliban. I wonder if that man expected to survive this action, and what he must have felt like driving away in that humvee.

[Serge]

Babak,

Safavid control over Pashtunistan was always tenuous or nonexistent though, correct? And, as those familiar with the history know, it did not end well.

[Leith]

Coll's latest on Afghanistan, 'Directorate S', also a good read. It covers intel efforts against AQ and the Taliban from 9/11 through his 2018 publication date:

https://www.amazon.com/Directorate-C-I-Americas-Afghanistan-Pakistan/dp/0143132504/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1LF4YNB2ABDUC&keywords=directorate+s&qid=1576688837&s=books&sprefix=%2Cstripbooks%2C263&sr=1-1

[Babak Makkinejad]

Tenuous compared to Tabriz or Herat, yes. But Pashtun tribal lords went to Isfahan to seek Justice. It did not end well due to divsions among Qizilbash tribes. They found it convenient to let the Legitimate Authority be destoyed so that they could lay claim to the throne of Persia. They were fools but such is the stuff of history. I wonder if the Armenian boys and girls, supplied to Afghans for their sexual pleasure by Julfa, were on the right or wrong side of history?

[Babak Makkinejad]

Ron Paul is being disingenous; who are these men and women in US Congress but the representatives of American people?

[Babak Makkinejad]

In reply to Serge