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02 December 2019

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turcopolier

factotum
That is irrelevant. The complaint would have been invalid as outside the law even if it had been based on first hand knowledge.

turcopolier

JJackson

The complaint was without the law, do you understand that?

turcopolier

LA Sox Fan

I will try again. The law has nothing to do with non-intelligence matters and there were no intelligence matters in the phone call.

Factotum

Ergo, the FBI is duty bound to hold Ciaramella accountable for filing a false complaint. Only if charges get filed can his action under this law be deemed irrelevant.

Otherwise, all you have are the opening opinion statements in tonights DNC debate, sneered out by Rachael Maddow, picked up with even more sneers by Kamala Harris and echoed by every single DNC candidate as already a fait accompli.

The unocntested party line tonight is this "whistle blower" busted Trump wide open as a crook and a self-confessed crook at that.

That political message flowing from this "irrelevant complaint "is hard to overcome as the DNC debate crowd cheered, unless the perpetrator is brought to justice under the relevance of this law. We shall wait patiently for that moment. As the Democrats all stated tonight - 2020 election is all about JUSTICE AND NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW.

NOW can I be excused while I go throw up?

Factotum

The complaint was a vehicle to carry out the Democrats politics of personal destruction.

While all on the DNC debate stage tonight, each candidate asked (without a hint of irony) to be the one candidate who can "bring the country together again" after Trump alone has torn it asunder.

Will Smith

The Intelligence Community Inspector General (ICIG) is Michael K Atkinson. ICIG Atkinson is the official who accepted the ridiculous premise of a hearsay ‘whistle-blower‘ complaint; an intelligence whistleblower who was “blowing-the-whistle” based on second hand information of a phone call without any direct personal knowledge, ie ‘hearsay‘.

The center of the Lawfare Alliance influence was/is the Department of Justice National Security Division, DOJ-NSD. It was the DOJ-NSD running the Main Justice side of the 2016 operations to support Operation Crossfire Hurricane and FBI agent Peter Strzok. It was also the DOJ-NSD where the sketchy legal theories around FARA violations (Sec. 901) originated.

Michael K Atkinson was previously the Senior Counsel to the Assistant Attorney General of the National Security Division of the Department of Justice (DOJ-NSD) in 2016. That makes Atkinson senior legal counsel to John Carlin and Mary McCord who were the former heads of the DOJ-NSD in 2016 when the stop Trump operation was underway.

Michael Atkinson was the lawyer for the same DOJ-NSD players who: (1) lied to the FISA court (Judge Rosemary Collyer) about the 80% non compliant NSA database abuse using FBI contractors; (2) filed the FISA application against Carter Page; and (3) used FARA violations as tools for political surveillance and political targeting.

Yes, that means Michael Atkinson was Senior Counsel for the DOJ-NSD, at the very epicenter of the political weaponization and FISA abuse.

https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2019/10/04/sketchy-inspector-general-michael-atkinson-admits-whistle-blower-never-informed-him-of-contact-with-schiff-committee/

johnf

O/T but there doesn't seem any other live thread where it can be put.

Israel is heading for a third election and is becoming politically more and more incoherent.

Avigdor Liberman, leader of Israael's far right secular party Yisrael Beytenu has failed in his attempts to form a government of national unity and is now denouncing the ultra orthodox parties as "anti-semitic!"

Netanyahu continues to wobble over the void of jail.

Gantz's Blue and White party has, like Netanyahu and Liberman, failed in attempts to lead a government of national unity.

I know there continues to be fighting in NE Syria and Yemen, and air attacks on Damascus, riots in Iraq, Iran and Lebanon, but I suspect that a lot of M.E. leaders are using this relative calm - due to the eclipse of Bibi - to do some serious talking.

Neo-conservatives in the US continue with his policies even if he is there no longer.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/left-and-right-unite-in-denouncing-libermans-anti-semitic-speech/

JJackson

I do, which is what I meant by
"In this case his/her gripe does not fall within the scope of the act."

The point I was making is that, as drafted, there is in adequate redress/protection for those who witness acts which are clearly covered. This is not conducive to keeping government on the straight and narrow. The reliability of the Steele document seems to have been massively oversold to the FISA court. Had someone in the know acted as Whistle-blower and saved us all that has followed they should not get crucified for it, it is part of their job isn't it?

jd hawkins

"They will NEVER seriously investigate, much less bring down, a fellow swamp creature".

Unfortunately, I think you're right.

J

Colonel,

Speaking of indictments
Off topic for our US,
The Israeli government is indicting Netanyahu today .


John Merryman.

Will Pelosi be having second thoughts when Obama is subpoenaed to testify before the Senate intelligence Committee

Morongobill

It seems to me that if Trump is serious about taking on the swamp, now might be a good time to strike. Surely in this whole mess, there has to be one clear cut case that he could use an excuse for strong action. Something so egregious, so requiring, dare I say, a righteous response- one involving a highly public perp walk or something similar.

It is time to put the fear of a jury finding followed by a certain and just punishment, perhaps a stay at Epstein's prison as a starter while awaiting a no bail trial.

This deplorable can only hope.

Aristophones

I believe we are talking about the "Fruit of the poisonous tree" objection. That evidence obtained illegally cannot be used and anything gained (the "fruit") from it is tainted as well.

Two questions: Was the whistle blower action illegal or just "improper"?
And if illegal, does the "attenuation doctrine" apply here?
"For example, a witness who freely and voluntarily testifies is enough of an independent intervening factor to sufficiently "attenuate" the connection between the government's illegal discovery of the witness and the witness's voluntary testimony itself. (United States v. Ceccolini, 435 U.S. 268 (1978))"

Rick Merlotti

Yeah, well fortunately nobody watches those debates.

artemesia

Does Trump have illegitimate children that he has failed to support?


Hunter does.
https://www.businessinsider.com/hunter-biden-father-of-luden-roberts-child-dna-test-2019-11

$50,000/month should cover a few Pampers.

LA Sox Fan

Exactly right. If I were Trump, I would have fired this guy for accepting a whistleblower complaint that was not allowed under the statute because it did not concern an intelligence activity or anything else supervised by the DNI as the statute requires.

Conceptually, it is the same as the Intelligence IG accepting and investigating complaints about slow mail service, mine safety, or TSA agents stealing when they inspect luggage at the airport. His jurisdiction is limited and he grossly exceeded it.

LA Sox Fan

Most likely, if this case were being heard in a court of law, it would be thrown out as fruit of the poisoned tree doctrine. However, the problem here is there are no judges with the authority to issue a ruling ordering Congress to stop these hearings.

However, it is certain that if Congress votes for impeachment, the Senate, same as the House, can also do what it wants and the GOP majority may vote to throw the case out on the grounds of fruit of the poisoned tree. However, I believe a full trial with witnesses favorable to the president testifying and focusing on Biden corruption would show the American people the impeachment process was bogus from the beginning and thus be more favorable to Trump. In any event, it is highly unlikely that the GOP majority Senate will provide the 67 votes necessary for impeachment.. So, at then end of the day, this is one big show trial where the end result will be Trump serving out his elected term or terms.

vig

what exactly, to the extend I recall, could the Ukraine contribute the the DNC's server/"fake malware" troubles? Beyond, that I seem to vaguely recall, the supposed malware was distributed via an Ukrainan address.

On the other hand, there seems to be the (consensus here?) argument there was no malware breach at all, simply an insider copying files on a USB stick.

It seems to either or. No?

What basics am I missing?

Barbara Ann

I tend to agree and suspect Team Trump is keeping its powder dry for a potential/inevitable Senate trial. The patent illegality of the original complaint, as accurately described here, will be just one of many bombshells dropped I expect. Trump is a master at giving his enemies enough rope to hang themselves and the Pelosi-Schiff show appears to me to be a classic example. My hope is the fire is lit while the witch hunters are still busying themselves atop the fagot pile.

David Habakkuk

vig,

There is no reason why it should be ‘either/or’.

If people discovered there had been a leak, it would perfectly natural that in order to give ‘resilience’ to their cover-up strategies, they could have organised a planting of evidence on the servers, in conjunction with elements in Ukraine.

So far at least I cannot rule out the possibility that that this could have involved an actual ‘false flag’ hack. A possible calculation would have been that this could have made it easier for Alperovitch and ‘CrowdStrike’, if more people had asked serious questions about the evidence they claimed supported the ‘narrative’ of GRU responsibility.

The issues involved become all the more important, in the light of the progress of Ty Clevenger’s attempts to exploit the clear contradiction between the claims by the FBI, in response to FOIA requests, to have no evidence relating to Seth Rich, and the remarks by Ms. Deborah Sines quoted by Michael Isikoff.

What she suggested was that the FBI had found evidence, after his death, of a hack of Rich’s laptop, designed as part of a ‘false flag’ operation.

On this, see his 8 October, ‘Motion for Discovery and Motion to Accept Supplemental Evidence’ in Clevenger’s own case against the DOJ, document 44 on the relevant ‘Courtlistener’ pages, and his ‘Unopposed Motion for Stay’, document 48.

Both are short, and available without a ‘PACER’ subscription, and should be compulsory reading for anyone seriously interested in ascertaining the truth about ‘Russiagate.’

(See https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6775665/clevenger-v-us-department-of-justice/ .)

It is eminently possible that Ms. Hines has simply made an ‘unforced error.’

However, I do not – yet – feel able totally to discount the possibility that what is actually at issue is a ‘ruse’, produced as a contingency plan to ensure that if it becomes impossible to maintain the cover-up over Rich’s involvement in its original form, his laptop shows ‘evidence’ compatible with the ‘Russiagate’ narrative.

And here, is is also material that he may have had more than one laptop, that ‘hard drives’ can be changed, and that the level of computer skills that can be found throughout the former Soviet Union is very high.

Another matter of some importance is that Ed Butowsky’s ‘Debunking Rod Wheeler’s Claims’ site is back up online.

(See http://debunkingrodwheelersclaims.net )

Looking at it from the perspective of an old television current affairs hack, I do think that, while it is very helpful to have some key material available in a single place, it would useful if more attention was paid to presentation.

In particular, it would be a most helpful ‘teaching aid’, if a full and accurate transcript was made of the conversation with Seymour Hersh which Ed Butowsky covertly recorded.

What seems clear is that both these figures ended up in very difficult positions, and that the latter clearly engaged in ‘sleight of hand’ in relation to his dealings with the former.

That said, the fact that Butowsky’s claims about his grounds for believing that Hersh’s FBI informant was Andrew McCabe are clearly disingenuous does not justify the conclusion that he is wrong.

It is absolutely clear to me – despite what ‘TTG’, following that ‘Grub Street’ hack Folkenflik, claimed – that when Hersh talked to Butowsky, he believed he had been given accurate information.

Indeed, I have difficulty seeing how anyone whose eyes were not hopelessly blinded by prejudice, a\nd possibly fear of where a quest for the truth might lead, could not see that, in this conversation, both men were telling the truth, as they saw it.

However, all of us, including the finest and most honourable of journalists can, from time to time, fall for disinformation. (If anyone says they can always spot when they are being played, all I can say is, if you’re right, you’re clearly Superman, but it is more likely that you are a fool or knave, if not both.)

The question of whether the ‘timeline’ produced by Hersh’s FBI informant was accurate, or a deliberate attempt to disguise the fact that all kinds of people were well aware of Rich’s involvement before his murder, and well aware of the fact of a leak before he was identified as its source, is absolutely central to how one interprets ‘Russiagate.’

Factotum

Several loose end issues about Crowdstrike:

1. Why did Crowdstrike conclude it was a "Russian breach", when other evidence does show it was an internal download. What was Crowdstrike's method and motivation to reach the "Russian" conclusion instead.Why has that methodology been sealed?

2. Why did Mueller wholly accept the Crowdstrike Russian conclusion, with no further or independent investigation and prominently put this Crowdstrike generated conclusion in his Russiagate report? Which also included the conclusion the "Russians" wanted to help Trump and harm Clinton. Heavy stuff, based upon a DNC proprietary investigation of their own and unavailable computers.

3. What were the relationships between Crowdstrike, DNC, FBI and the Meuller team that conspired to reach this Russian conclusion.

4. Why did the Roger Stone judge, who just sent Stone away for life, refuse Stone's evidentiary demand to ascertain how exactly Crowdstrike reached its Russsian hacking conclusion, that the court then linked to Stone allegedly lying about this Russian link.

5. Indeed, let's set out with full transparency the Ukraine -Crowsdtrike player links and loyalties to see if there are any smoking guns yet undisclosed. Trump was asking for more information about Crowdstrike like a good lawyer - never ask a question when you don't already know the right answer. Crowdstrike is owned by a Ukrainian by birth.

J

Colonel,

While the Impeachment circus act was in gear, the Democrats were quietly reauthorizing The Patriot Act in the funding resolution keeping the government afloat for another 3 months.

blue peacock

All

I am a bit puzzled with what the Democrats are doing.

In reading the Constitution, there's nothing that I can see that enumerates a specific procedure on impeachment in the House. It also appears that there is no definition of what High Crimes & Misdemeanors are and it would be whatever the House says it is. It appears the House can impeach by bringing the Articles of Impeachment to the floor for a vote. Nancy Pelosi has enough votes in her caucus to pass that with just her own party votes.

What is prompting the current process they are following? An inquiry by the Intelligence Committee, where the majority decides which witnesses can be called and there's no opportunity for the accused to cross-examine and provide rebuttal evidence and testimony.

vig

DH,
sometimes literature falls into life, no doubt, but looked at more closely it often turns out to be rather mundane. On the other hand without life there wouldn't be tales and literature.

Fred

Blue Peacock,

They have controlled the media news cycle for most of the last few weeks. They are also deploying and testing soundbites. Given the news from FB, Twitter and Google to limit the ability of "political ads" to target audiences with unique adds. That's all coordinated against Trump. The fact these hearings showed the career bureaucracy is not only out of touch with America but contemptuous of most Americans.

The last two were prime examples. The "good immigrant" - and a woman; check a couple of boxes for democratic party declared support groups being victimized by Trump's Tweets (now labeled attacks, kind of like the hate speech label). Then there is wonderboy Mr. Holmes. Do you think either know what's going on in Tupelo or Topeka, or give a damn? Mr. Holmes was upset that two Ukrainians recently died in combat. That was last night in Detroit. And Baltimore. And Chicago. Of course the Dynamic Duo was working to end corruption: in Kiev.

How about Balitmore: https://abcnews.go.com/US/baltimore-mayor-catherine-pugh-indicted-wire-fraud-tax/story?id=67160787
Chicago: https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-chicago-convicted-aldermen-htmlstory.html
San Francisco? Well, everyone just love street defacation and petty theft not being prosecuted.

Of course those aren't the lives that matter to the Council on Foreign Relations crowd or those who went to that fine proletarian school: St. Andrews - in Scotland. A fine school all middle class Americans aspire too. Yep, just regular ole American's. You are concerned about due process and evidence faked by police? Just ask some inner city black Americans if that happens in their neighborhood.

Once Trump RIFs 90 percent of these people they can go put their skills in corruption fighting to good use in a country they all love. I'm sure these two fine examples of white privelege integrity and honest governance will have no trouble getting hired in a place like Baltimore. They hired DeRay McKesson; these well credentialed experts will have no problems at all fixing that city. It's full of honest Americans.

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