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18 November 2019

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Charlie Wilson

Colonel

I think those dastardly Mohammedans have been pretty clear about this for quite some time:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoners_of_war_in_Islam

turcopolier

Charlie Wilson

"the opinion of the Maliki, Shafi'i, Hanbali and Jafari madhabs is that adult male prisoners of war may be executed" wiki on Islamic treatment of prisoners of war. ISIS murder of prisoners of war is based in Hanbali sharia. IMO the concept of limitations in war is far more Western in origin than Islamic. They are still largely medieval in their more obscure parts. BTW the "mohammadans" thing is funny I used to laugh with my students that only idiots said that. Further BTW, Charlie Wilson of the 1st Congressional District of Texas was kind of a pal. I used to drink good Bourbon with him in his Capitol Hill Office whilst ogling the beautiful girls on his staff and talking about the Civil War. DIA would send me over there whenever he had a problem with us. One day he said to me "did Lennie Perroots send you over this?" I said he had. "You tell Lennie that he has to man up and come talk to me himself" I did that and Charlie ripped his tail unmercifully over an air attache complaining over Charlie using our airplanes to transport his mistresses (disguised as staff) around overseas. that was funny because Lennie was a noted and successful womanizer hisself.

Hindsight Observer

These "Senseless Killing" incidents only become Public. When the overall goal is to disparage the ruling administration. Beit at the Command Level or at the Presidential level. To, Close with and destroy an enemy, should never be conflated with, To Protect and Serve. We all understand that concept. However prisoners are not always equal. Nor does the Threat Posed always end with their capture.

I agree with the statement of the POTUS. Paraphrasing, America builds these men into killing machines for their own safety and for that of our nation. What is truly senseless IMO is to somehow believe these killings can be halted. OR even, that they should be halted. They are as much a factor of war, as carpet bombing or landmines.

turcopolier

hindsight observer

You sound like a civilian chickenhawk. What is the record of your combat service? How many have you killed, you silly savage?

Voatboy

https://www.history.com/news/chivalry-knights-middle-ages

My understanding is that chivalry was not invented by priests or lawyers. My understanding is that chivalry was invented by combat hardened knights telling the younger knights "shape up, we are better than that."

Leith

Killing the helpless should never be condoned. I think the President has watched too many hollywood movies. These pardons are going to hurt our military badly.

turcopolier

All
Turns out that HO was in SAC for four years either as a command pilot or a security policeman. He didn't make it clear which and then was in law enforcement for 30 years rising to be either a traffic op or sherriff in East Bumfuck County Minnesota. Once again he di not say which. He tells me that he is a real hard ass and believes that enemies should be pursued to the end and despatched to Aalla. He loves Trump. Of coure. I will vote for Trump but do not love him.

TonyL

"I will vote for Trump but do not love him"

And I greatly respect you for that choice you will make. I will not vote for him or Biden.

Sbin

Mr Wilson sounds like a gregarious man.
Unfortunately he helped construct a wahhabist terror organization which is a plague on our world to this day.
Dick Cheney moving Iraq weapons captured during gulf war 1 to Afganistan was another.gov arming Wahhabist fundamentalist.
The Bengazi CIA ratline of captured Libyan weapons story has been presented as something completely different

jd hawkins

Love that reply!

Kilo 4/11

Hot damn I love the sound of the Colonel ripping somebody a new one in the morning!

srw

Any idea why the three military men charged/convicted of war crimes noted above were higher rank than the average grunt?

turcopolier

srw

They were in charge and/or did the deed themselves. These were not "war crimes" which are generally things like "planning waging aggressive war." these were simple violations of UCMJ.

turcopolier

Kilo 4/11

Woof!

turcopolier

Sbin

"Gregarious" would be a good way to describe him. A graduate of Annapolis, he was looking to be "one of the boys" and I wsa glad to treat him like any other subkect for recruitment. I don't like to drink in the morning, but it was worth it. It was useless to try to tell him that the Afghan Mujahideen were dangerous. He saw them as the Robin Hoods and the Soviets as King John's men.

Barbara Ann

Lorance appears to be a convicted murderer who happened to be a soldier. The 2015 NYT article says 9 members of his own platoon testified against him at the trial. One is quoted as saying that the incident in question could not be characterized as a 'heat of the battle' type situation and that it was instead "..straight murder". Lorance's case had however become a cause célèbre and pardoning him seems to be a straightforward populist attempt to garner votes. The collateral damage here is to the validity of military law. I doubt Trump is much bothered by that.

Terence Gore

I don't know how I would behave in a situation far above my control. From my recent past with very minor insults I have reacted quite badly.

I hope that we would avoid such situations where they are unneeded and at least unexpected.

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/finally-an-unvarnished-history-of-the-iraq-invasion/

Barbara Ann

The chivalric code of battle ensured that captured knights on both sides could be safely returned home after payment of the appropriate ransom sum. No such protocol applied to low-born men at arms. The English behavior at Agincourt was so reviled because commoners 'murdered' captured French knights rather than risk their escape.

The French sometimes raised the Oriflamme standard in battle to indicate that no quarter would be given. It also happens to be the rather brilliantly chosen name for a cosmetics company.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriflamme

Adrestia

For what its worth, when I read about Major Golsteyn in the past I could understand why he killed the Afghan. IMO, considering the context there are valid reasons why it was probably the right thing to do.

The other cases are different and should have been acted upon. The message of the amnesty will be interpreted as:
1. Killing innocents is acceptable for serving soldiers
2. Our lives are worthless to non-Americans, thus they should be considered as enemies

different clue

Or even knows what that is.

elaine

1 Lt Clint Lorance's cause has been championed for years by United American Patriots.
A recent documentary on public tv titled "Leavenworth" featured his story & history.
I wasn't present, needless to say @ the alleged criminal act, however my understanding is he had no combat experience & ordered on coming guys on motor cyclists to halt
& they refused to obey & were subsequently fired upon to protect himself & those under his command.

Was it later proven the guys on the motor cycles were bomb makers? I'll let you make
your own decision. As for 1Lt Lorance not receiving the support testimony of his men:the skuttelbut on that is (a) he was disliked by his men for being too green & also gay (b) that perhaps there was pressure put on his troops implying if they testified in his defence they too would be court martialed.

Leith

Many decades ago a prof teaching World History 101 told us freshmen that 'chivalry' came to Europe via returning crusaders. Those re supposedly had many stories to tell of the gallantry, generosity, dignity, and justice of Saladin; which they sought to emulate. But didn't the stories of Charlemagne's paladins and Arthur's knights predate Saladin by centuries? Or were those legends embellished over time?

And I recall that Sir John Glubb, who trained and led Jordan's Arab Legion, spoke of Bedouin poetry recited over desert campfires that retold chivalrous events, some of which preceded the founding of Islam.

Christian J Chuba

The guys on the motor cycles were not bomb makers, it was Golsteyn who killed the alleged bomb maker. A town elder identified the man, Golsteyn took him into custody but when the alleged bomb maker found out the name of the guy who identified him, Golsteyn killed him rather than risk reprisal against the elder. IMO the long deployment overseas is making our soldiers worse for the wear.

The dramatic moment in Gallagher's trial was when a medic testified that he suffocated the prisoner before Gallagher's knife wounds proved fatal. Pete Hegseth calls this full vindication. I'm not interested in punishing our serviceman but this idea of reinstating someone like Gallagher to full rank and saying good job, train some more guys, bothers me. I probably would wet my pants the first time I heard a loud explosion but that's how I see it.

Terence Gore

https://original.antiwar.com/Danny_Sjursen/2019/11/19/what-was-it-all-for-iranian-intel-leaks-and-the-us-folly-in-iraq/

Sjursen in a longer article gives a harrowing passage of what it was like in Iraq fighting the insurgency.

How would anyone deal with that kind of situation?

Poul

Let's not forget all justice is based on power. It's human nature to always punish those we hate harshly while those we like get off lightly.

A war criminal who has fallen into the hands of the enemy is punished very differently than a war criminal on the victorious side. If you lose but don't fall into the enemy's hands nothing will most likely happen. Read Barbara W. Tuchman's "Guns of August" for various German atrocities in Belgium, 1914. Her sources include diaries of German officers.


Example from WW2.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marocchinate

Compare with General Dostler:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Dostler


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