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13 November 2019

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Jus'Thinkin

Correct me if I am wrong, but as I understand Canon Law, there is no procedure for removing a pope. If that is the case, the only way Francis will leave his position as Pope is by resignation or death.

turcopolier

jus'thinkin

Nobody had seen a pope resign until Benedict. Canon law? When was the last time we had a heretic pope?

Dave Schuler

I am not leaving the Catholic Church but the Catholic Church certainly seems to be leaving me.

Vernon C.

I consider myself a conservative Catholic but I’m almost as cautious of characterizations of the Holy Father coming from the Sedevacantist-leaning traditionalists as I am with the mainstream media covering Trump. The Holy Father has been rock solid on marriage, the family, and abortion. But the heresy hunters look for ecumenical transgressions like Adam Schiff looks for foreign policy transgressions by Trump.

St. Ignatius of Loyola, “Ruies of Thinking with the Church”:

“Thirteenth Rule. To be right in everything, we ought always to hold that the white which I see, is black, if the Hierarchical Church so decides it, believing that between Christ our Lord, the Bridegroom, and the Church, His Bride, there is the same Spirit which governs and directs us for the salvation of our souls. Because by the same Spirit and our Lord Who gave the ten Commandments, our holy Mother the Church is directed and governed.” https://sacred-texts.com/chr/seil/seil82.htm

Harvard Law professor and staunch Catholic (convert), Adrian Vermeule, believes this criticism of the Holy Father Is rooted in a kind of crypto-Protestantism and all of the error of pride that entails. Here’s a recent tweet from Prof. Vermeule on this subject/TLM:

“It shouldn’t have to be said that the problem of crypto-Protestantism, especially in the American church, is *not* a problem about the traditional mass in itself. (And I say that as one who affirmatively values the evangelical character of the ordinary form). The problem arises when Catholics elevate their private judgments about “tradition,” understood as a static set of rules, into the highest authority in Heaven and on Earth — in the same way that Protestants make “sola scriptura” an authority higher than the Church itself. I have met people who went to either Mass who did, or did not, fall into this mistake. Let’s draw some elementary distinctions, lest the wheat and the chaff be discarded together.”

https://twitter.com/Vermeullarmine


Harlan Easley

Black Pope

ThereisaGod

Not as bad as having a joint religious ceremony/celebration with Talmudic Rabbis (i.e. Pharisees) whose 'Holy Book' teaches that "Christ is in hell drowning in boiling excrement" ...

...as John Paul II did.

artemesia

The Roman Catholic Church where my son was married has an annual Blessing of the Animals ceremony.

---
Francis may be on the right side of history: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/52534.htm
"When Luis Fernando Camacho . . .
With a Bible in one hand and a national flag in the other, . . . bowed his head in prayer above the presidential seal, fulfilling his vow to purge his country’s Native heritage from government and “return God to the burned palace.”

“Pachamama will never return to the palace,” he said, referring to the Andean Mother Earth spirit. “Bolivia belongs to Christ.” . . .
He is a powerful multi-millionaire named in the Panama Papers, and an ultra-conservative Christian fundamentalist groomed by a fascist paramilitary notorious for its racist violence, with a base in Bolivia’s wealthy separatist region of Santa Cruz."

Dashing the Preferential Option for the Poor or blessing statues.
What would Jesus do?

Paco

I wonder what would be the reaction of all these guardians of the rites and pomp if the Pope visits Wall Street and lashes at all the merchants in the temple. ¿Would that be heresy too?
The Catholic Church under the auspices of the polish pope lost Latin America, the Catholic Church has been supplanted by a constellation of evangelist freaks, extremist and greedy, fulfilling a political task, always against the interest of the locals. What can be said of such freaks whose unholy alliance with zionists is based on the final destruction of the ally?
Woytila scorning father and poet Cardenal in Nicaragua set the tone, and the results are there to see, Brasil with Bolsonaro, Guatemala with the pitiful comic, and now a coup in Bolivia to steal their riches, Tesla almost doubled its value after the coup, Bolivia’s lithium is there for the take.
Pope Francis should grasp the whip, and ban all the merchants of death from the Temple.

Vegetius

Catholics should begin speaking out at Mass, confronting their parish priests directly on all this, withholding the benjamins, etc.

My understanding is that in the olden times you were burned for heresy, and sometimes for sodomy, the two things the Catholic clerisy now seems infested with.

Augustin L

A good ol' christian coup like in Bolivia, so as to remove this red commie from office... It will be harder to pull in Europe, but I'm sure Boss tweet and his neo-confederate surrogates (Gingrich et al) are on the job.

Dabbler

Is there any chance we’ll hear from Ratzinger on this?

Additionally, Wikipedia asserts that Francis is planning to alter the role of the holy office (congregation for the doctrine of the faith).

Stephanie

WWJD

Factotum

Renaissance was pretty full of non-popey Popes - t'was a political office secured through well-placed lucre and licentiousness..

turcopolier

Factotum

Really, a political office? Hard to believe. You mean people like the Borgias? None of them were HERETICS! Try to get that straight.

turcopolier

Stephanis

Well, he might show up sitting on a bench in the Vatican Garden and ask Francis to touch his wounds. Rumor is that he did that with JP2 who asked if there would be women priests or married priests and was told "Not in your lifetime." JP2 then asked if there would be another Polish pope. To which Jesus replied "Not in my lifetime."

turcopolier

artemesia

What does the blessing of the animals have to do with heresy? They are God's creatures, as we are. Actually, the Catholic Church exists outside o history and those who have fouled it (many) will pay for that.

turcopolier

paco

"¿Would that be heresy too? " Marxist drivel.

turcopolier

VernonC

"The Holy Father has been rock solid on marriage, the family, and abortion." OK, but the church is primarily about salvation, not social good works. They are a secondary benefit.

turcopolier

Elora Danan

"Should Elora understand you are with those nazi thugs slaughtering poor Bolivian indigenous people in Bolivia right now," Childish. Praising Donald Trump does not make one a Nazi. As pope, Francis is God's vicar on earth. It does not make me a fundamentalist (another childish insult) to believe that if he persists in these deviations from Church teaching there will be a massive schism in the Catholic Church and he can go home to BA to live an unfettered life. As for Morales, the man deliberately violated the term limits provision in the Bolivian constitution.

JamesT

Colonel,

The lefty news outlets I read say that the Bolivian Supreme Court abolished those term limits. I disagree with some rulings of the US supreme court, but I believe the rulings should nonetheless by respected.

turcopolier

JamesT

But did Morales arrange for the court to end term limits? I do not know.

akaPatience

You were reading my mind Vernon C. I was wondering if it were possible that the colonel wrote this as a kind of metaphor, an allusion to Trump's travails, especially after hearing SO MUCH Congressional testimony today that focused on the POTUS' "irregular channels" in foreign policy. Sacre bleu! Heaven forbid! Still, I don't doubt Col. Lang's remarks about Pope Francis were made in earnest.

turcopolier

akaPatience

As hard as it may be to believe, there are people who are believers who can read, write, do calculus and the like. Trump is not the vicar of Christ. Francis is. Francis is making his own bed and will have to sleep in it. Trump's troubles are not, in my opinion, of his own creation. The State Department egoists who testified today hate the fact that the president does not need to conduct diplomacy through them. The "interagency" is nowhere mentioned in the constitution. Francis on the other hand is deliberately reversing not just the practice of the Church, things like having married clergy but also its baseline teachings, the things that make Christianity what it is. The Church has assimilated many alien faith practices in its long life but the risk to Francis in doing what he is doing is immense. These changes may well divide the Church into more than one body. This a mighty responsibility to take upon himself. He wants to be a modern Luther?

anon

Nope.Green pope,and smart to acknowledge pachamama.wiki says

"In pre-Hispanic culture, Pachamama was often a cruel goddess eager to collect her sacrifices. After the conquest by Spain, conversion to Roman Catholicism took place and the figure of the Virgin Mary was equated with that of the Pachamama for many of the indigenous people.[4]

As Andean cultures form modern nations, Pachamama remains benevolent, giving,[5] and a local name for Mother Nature. Thus, many in South America believe that problems arise when people take too much from nature because they are taking too much from Pachamama."

So in actual fact acknowledgement of the current state of affairs involving the environment. Interesting that the Catholic religion put an end to human sacrifice. Stupid to think that European cultural and religious influence is a one way street.The winds of change are blowing.
Secondly no child in this day and age will accept beyond doubt that Christ rose from the dead.Sorry mate but that horse has bolted.His spirit might have but dead is dead.
The church and for that matter all religions have had a good run up to now.By being the gatekeepers of written word and knowledge few could question the facts.Sorry mate but that camel has also bolted.
Personally I believe in the one God.I have absolutely no doubt that God exists.The experiences are real.Religion is a social construct.Good for charity and moral support.However there is no direct connection between God and religion. The connection is solely between God and you.Of this I absolutely no doubt.


John Merryman

The logical fallacy of monotheism is that a spiritual absolute would necessarily be the essence of sentience, from which we rise, not an ideal of wisdom and judgement, from which we fell. More the new born, than the wise old man. The light shining through the film, than the images on it.
Yet no culture could exist, if it simply reveled in sentience, so we have this top down father figure lawgiver, because the anarchy of desire has to be balanced by the tyranny of judgement. The heart and the head. Liberal and conservative. Youth and age. Cycles of expansion and consolidation.
When we confuse the ideal with the absolute, it does create some significant problems. For example, good and bad are not some cosmic duel between the forces of righteousness and evil, but the basic biological binary of beneficial and detrimental. The 1/0 of life, from which all the higher order social nuances rise. Respect, responsibility, honesty, trust, empathy, sympathy, etc. So when we treat the simple basics of good and bad as an ideal, rather then an essence, conflicts quickly devolve into a race to the bottom, of us, versus them, good, versus bad, rather then each side respecting the structure of civilized evolution on which they rest and being able to work through the complexities.
A good book on the history of Western civilization is Gilbert Murray's; The Five Stages of Greek Religion. One of the lessons drawn from his writings is that tribal beliefs tended towards forms of monotheism, as the tribal spirit. Against the larger world. It was with the advent of city states, that a form of multiculturalism emerged as poly and pantheisms. These were the cultural basis for the democracy of Greece and the republicanism of Rome. So when the west went back to a form of monotheism, in the Holy Trinity, the default civil system was monarchy. As in one god, one ruler. Divine right of kings. It was when the west went back to those more complex and interactive forms of government, that separation of church and state, culture and civics, became necessary.
I don't think the whole story is finalized just yet.

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