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09 October 2019

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JSoban

How many years did the Kurds have to make nice with the Syria government and ally with SAA? Had they done so there would be no Turkish soldiers in Syria. The Kurds had a role in weakening the Syrian government and the fraying of Syria.

Lars

This betrayal by Donald Trump will cause such a bloody stain on the reputation of the US that it will take a long time to remedy, if ever. The Armenians still remember what the Turks did to them a very long time ago. Who in their right mind will trust the US in the future?

Ishmael Zechariah

re: Kalin claimed that the PYD/YPG had already done that (and this may have some truth to it but it doesn't excuse the Turks)."
A few questions:
1-How much truth do you attribute to this statement?
2-What should have been done to rectify the issue if it were true?
3-Who would have "done" said rectification?
Ishmael Zechariah
P.s: If you could also identify a nation which does not use "double talk", it would be enlightening.

Turcopolier

Willy B

Excellent summary of Turkish/neo-Ottoman IO. The ancient sharia concept of taqiya (justified lies to the infidels) is clearly a factor.

Leith

Artillery shelling of women and children by US made 155mm howitzers. Direct fire on some targets by US made & Israeli upgraded M60 tanks. Bombing of Mansour Dam that distributes water to millions of Syrians by US F16s. Targets located by Israeli IAI Heron UAVs.

The biggest threat to those women and children though is the busloads of jihadi TFSA or TSO liver-eaters. They are enroute through Turkey hell bound for the border so they can do some slave-raiding on Syrian women. Plus a bit of looting and head-chopping like they did in Afrin and the al-Bab triangle. And when the YPG and the Syriac Christians defend their villages against these Salafists, Erdogan will cry foul and say "I told you they were PKK terrorists".

Erdogan is the terrorist. Guess who are his enablers?

JP Billen

"most of the refugees in Turkey came from the western half of the country, the region ranging from Aleppo through Hama to Damascus." Absolutely true! Few if any came from the NE. Erdogan is doing this because he cannot dump those refugees in Idlib. They would riot first, they know Idlib is a killing ground. And besides the Russians would not let him get away with it.

He'll be establishing fortified OPs soon along within his so-called 'Peace Zone'. Those OPs and Erdogan's jihadi bases in the 30km corridor will definitely be targeted by the YPG and others.

turcopolier

lars

I guess you missed my piece on the long tradition of US betrayals. Nothing could have been more treacherous than our betrayal of the anti-communist Vietnamese. Millions of them showed the depth of their abandonment than their flight from communist rule by the millions.

JP Billen

JSoban, The Kurds tried to make nice for several years. But Assad would not play. He maybe thought he was bound by the 1998 Adana Agreement which stated 'no support for the Kurds' like his father Hafez used to provide. But Erdogan screwed him anyway. First by occupying al-Bab, Idlib, and Afrin; and now by stealing another 15,000 square kilometers of Syria in the NE (if he stops at 15K?).

The Kurds never had any role in weakening the Syrian Government. The Syrian Army and Syrian Government officials left NE Syria fleeing fro al-Qaeda and ISIS. The Kurds did not force them out and never asked them to leave. The Kurds, and Syriacs, and some Arab tribes of that region took up arms to protect themselves against jihadis because the Syrian Government had abandoned them.

I would hope you would do the same to protect your family and neighbors from roving bands of murderers if the law enforcement authorities had given up and left town.

Fred

Lars,

There was plenty of time to volunteer with the "Free Syrian Army". I don't recall Barrack ever asking for any. I'm sure when Hilary "wins again" she'll rally the country behind her to free, well, whoever it is we need to free then.

Ishmael Zechariah

Leith,
Those are not US made howitzers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-155_F%C4%B1rt%C4%B1na
You know not whereof you speak.
Ishmael Zechariah

SAC Brat

Will this be a greater stain than what the US government did to the Hmong and the Montagnards? Great Britain and the Karen?

turcopolier

SAC Brat

About the same.

barrisj

When juxtaposing “ Syria” with “territorial integrity” is to illustrate a flagrant oxymoron. For several years there have been foreign actors both invited and uninvited that have inserted themselves in this morass. Russia, al-Quds, Hezb’ullah, Israel, the US, Turkey, KSA, inter alia all are in the mix, and all claim a “national interest” or a “national security” rationale for their continued presence. Assad and his government - and indeed the country’s sovereignty - are held hostage by both his foreign supporters and enemies, and I doubt that I will live long enough to see a truly independent Syria, free from foreign interference or “support” of any kind, regrettably.

Leith

SAC Brat -

The Karen are still fighting 70 years later. If Turkey is allowed to stay in Syria for another 70 years they will still be facing an insurgency by the Syrian Kurds. That so-called peace corridor plus al-Bab & Afrin might just turn into Turkey's Viet-Nam.

Regarding the Hmong, they are still being persecuted.
http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Vietnam-unleashes-wave-of-repression-against-Hmong-Christians,-at-least-49-dead-21507.html

Jackrabbit

IMO the Turkish operation is just cover for freeing the ISIS prisoners so they can fight SAA's coming attempt to re-take the oil fields.

USA probably has some agreement with Turkey to safeguard the Kurds. But the hair-on-fire talk of the "betrayal" of the Kurds, along with the revival of ISIS sets up Trump's eventual cave-in to future neocon demands.

Naturally, the above analysis is INCONCEIVABLE to those who are invested in the fake media narratives surrounding the 'Trump Show'. We are encouraged to love or hate Trump and thus invest ourselves in the 'Show'. Hehe, the kayfabe is certainly entertaining at times.

PS great analysis Willy!

SAC Brat

The buddhist temples I have been to in the US have large Hmong congregations. I have met a few US veterans at the temples that where sheep-dipped for the Secret War. I love learning history from the participants.

Leith

Ishmael, did you mean the 95% Samsung designed and developed K9 Thunder, built under license in Turkey? If they are using that exclusively and none of their recently upgraded M52T SP then I will stand corrected. But I'll wait for photos from the specific batteries being used.

http://www.military-today.com/artillery/m52t.htm

If Erdogan is using the longer range T55 Firtina then he obviously plans to go much deeper than his buffer zone.

By the way the Samsung design was based on the US M109.

ted richard

what turkey does in north east syria by moving in troops in the medium to long term is irrelevant. it is the stated goal of the 'principal' deciders (to quote W) ...russia, syria, iran, china and hezbollah that syria should remain territorially whole and sovereign.

turkeys future is in eurasia as part of the OBOR and as a member of the various organizations that constitute that emerging multipolar civilization. turkeys future as part of nato and even the west is over, they know the west knows it. which is why washington is building up a large military presence in greece and bulgaria

washington, tel aviv and ryahd have increasingly less power and leverage to decide anything as regards syria and the middle east.......hello... the houhti's lighting up the refinery and washingtons non response is all you need to know

do not be misdirected by short term military maneuvers and what happens to the kurds is now of their own making. they could have reconciled with damascus as damascus tried on their behalf. they adamantly refused expecting washngton promises were actually worth something.

hey lars, the kurds must have gotten takeout from the same candy crapping unicorn where you eat.

in any event washington is replaying the role of the ottomans in the twilight of WW1. they are slowly being expelled from any position of real power and influence in the middle east. the war mongers in DC know it, the neocons know it as do the MIC oligarchs. hence the msm hysteria about trump and troop redeployment in syria.

tel aviv is militarily weaker than ever before and they know that as well. they have remained more or less in stasis while the nature of warfare has changed under their feet and now they find themselves indefensible.

the real goal playing out BEHIND the curtain is to manage the american empires accelerating collapse so the crazies in washington do not in a fit lunacy light up the planet in a final effort to hold onto what is already lost.........unipolarity.... as they are pushed off the stage and out of the building.

Christopher Sims

The Kurdish leadership had multiple opportunities to reconcile with the Syrian government, they have up until now refused and instead allowed themselves to be used as a US proxy which has divided Syria further.

If they were only interested in self defence why did they hugely expand the territory which they controlled, they have also skirmished directly with SAA forces on numerous occasions and the Syrian government forces didnt abandon NE Syria, they were overstretched from trying to fight so called 'rebels' all over the country. The Syrian government held on to territory the best it could and still has a presence in NE Syria i.e Qamishly. They didnt tuck tail and run. They were beaten back and had hundreds of soldiers massacred in the process

If the Kurds never wanted to weaken Syria why have they not handed back territory that used to belong to Syria such as Raqqa, Manbij the Omar gas fields etc.?
The Kurds have had their own agenda, they got greedy and tried to take advantage of a weakened Syria to get their slice of the pie now they are paying the price.

Lars

I did not miss it and I agree that this is not the first one, but with modern media, this one will be recorded in real time and that will be different. One problem is that much of the world will see this as a betrayal by the US, when it actually is a betrayal by Trump. Some in the GOP are protesting, but they won't do anything about it, so they will own it too.

turcopolier

Lars

I realize that you did not live in the US during VN but the media was plenty modern then.

Fred

Lars,

Will the media notice it is Turkey attacking our ally? Isn't that going to trigger article 5 of the NATO treaty?

Bob Saccamanno

Taqiyya is usually translated as "prudential or precautionary dissimulation" and has a counterpart among Jewish minorities facing persecution. It is *only* ethically acceptable in all of its historical manifestations as a defensive mechanism under duress or pain of death. But all peoples under persecution practice it even if they don't develop a specific ethics language to describe and delimit it. Of course all people also violate such norms and lie, or fac et excuse under its guise. But claims that this or that group have a "norm of lying" are generally an outgrowths of historical apologetics and so said about one people by their enemies. It is an ironic form of bearing false witness for a scholar to characterize it thus when they actually ought to know better.

prawnik

I don't think the Kurds' American friends would allow a reconciliation with the Syrian government, even if the Kurds wholeheartedly wanted such.

prawnik

Russia, Hezbollah and Al Quds were all invited by the legitimate Syrian government.

Israel, the US, Turkey and assorted jihadis were not.

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