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03 August 2019

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VietnamVet

I went through Hong Kong over half a century ago on the way to Singapore in my three years of living in S.E. Asia. Both cities were old British outposts with cultural mixed populations with Chinese majorities and English as a second language. There are internet comments that life for workers in Hong Kong has degraded significantly in the last 20 years. The same as England, France or Mid-America. This can’t be a coincidence. Corporate media hides it but the Oligarchs Reign of Chaos (the destruction of government for profit) that spread across Middle East and Africa has now infected Europe, Asia and the Americas.

Stueeeeee

The same was said of the British, the French, the Germans, and other peoples before they became nations. Hong Kong's temper tantrum is not an existential threat, but an opportunity for the Chinese to finally address the humiliation of having a foreign colony in her mainland. The autonomy agreement gave the Chinese the time to further develop. It is not a matter of if but when Hong Kong will be annexed unconditionally.

Quick buck? They have competition. Read about the Sackler family for you will not hear about them in the news.

Fred

John,

Imperial Rome of the 1st century A.D. was not a Westministerian Democracy.

DavidKNZ

my feeling is that the costs have been transferred to the masses--peasants today have cell phones, but they are still peasants and their children will be peasants; their lot seems similar to Appalachian coal miners

In meandering around northern rural china, I found the attitude of the "peasants" quite a revelation. Even the man whose job was to repair the spokes on bicycle wheels considered himself a business man, and while he did not make much money, the future would be better for his children and even better for his grandchildren, so he was a cheerful optimist. The elderly gathered daily round a very large table and talked, while taking turns for haircuts. Much of the village decisions were taken by consensus. And there was considerable awareness of, and caution about, the politics of Beijing. Because I was often mistaken for a russian, I heard about the enthusiasm for russian gas and trade in chinese meat with russia. Sure, its Godless materialism (Deng Xiaoping - it is glorious to be rich) but there is also an undercurrent of acknowledgement to spiritual values. Pretty much every hill or mountain had a small shrine or cairn at the summit - some ancestors tribute. Even the rundown rural monasteries were treated with care - even the ones with substantial cannabis plots adjacent :-) . There was much for me to learn (and to unlearn) but mostly it was a very pleasant experience. YMMV

dilbert dogbert

A thought experiement: A black antifa walks into a Walmart and kills 20 innocent folks. Detail the political response.

Eliot

"All indicates that what is meant to be a "general strike" will be an intent on coup d´etat, in the same lines of the past riots in Iran were police stations were attacked as well so to seize arms and create chaos..."

I think that's going somewhat overboard. Stability is always tenuous thing, especially in a country like Russia, but they had what, just a thousand people on the street? That's a movement that isn't popular, and has limited organization, and limited funding.

Money for example would buy transportation, and bodies.

From my contact with young Russians, protests appear to be a kind of sport, and getting arrested part of the package. I saw music video for a Russian pop band last year and for some reason they elected to celebrate protest culture.

I do I think I understand traditional conservative Russia, to a degree, but I do not understand the liberals. Do they feel insecure about being Russian, and would they prefer to be European instead?

The Liberals always seem to blow things up when they take power. Be it during WW1, or after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

rjj



    is this poster a member of that troupe of Triple A (Authenticated, Board Approved, Officially Authorized) BabMak® impersonators?

    rjj

    how about a casting call for Tyler impersonators???

    Robert Poling

    The HK protests have gone on for nine weeks. Beijing is now blaming the U.S. for supporting the protests, and suggesting that the U.S. is supporting if not behind starting the HK protest movement. This is similar to the Tian-an-men Square protests in 1989. We got blamed for that too and probably were deeply involved. Certainly the Agency helped many of the student leaders escape the crackdown by the Army.

    President Xi has unprecedented power now, not matched since the days of Deng Xiao Peng. Expect a similar decision and outcome in HK as the one Deng decided in 1989. Chinese government media have started incessant accusations against Western interference in HK and this plays very well on the mainland to gain support for a crackdown. It is not playing very well in Taiwan, but I assess Beijing has decided it will eventually need to use force to accomplish reunification of Taiwan and will do so as soon as it believes the U.S. will not or cannot intervene in time to stop once it's underway.

    Let's not forget that preserving the leadership of the Chinese Communist Party within China and the re-unification of all of China's territory are the two pillars of Beijing's national doctrine. Everything they do is in service of those two goals .

    b

    The 'peaceful protesters' brought stones and large slingshots to destroy the windows of a police station
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qotPsIbhVyA

    When a local civilian verbally disagreed with them they beat him up
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmbRh_S_dhY

    The business people will soon be very pissed off about their falling business. They will press the government to suppress the 'black block' that now seems to be the only part that is left from the demonstrations. Despite all the money NED 'invested' in this stunt there will be no Maidan in Hong Kong.

    Jack

    Classic!

    You’ll never link to the many, many videos that show the police brutality and videos of collusion between police and thugs. Of course for you everything is a conspiracy theory of American perfidy. In your world view US intelligence services and the US government are amazingly omnipotent as they’re behind every action against your communist heroes. IMO, you’re an anti-American propagandist, not an objective observer and analyst of world affairs.

    How come you’re not living in your communist shangri-la under the CCP reciting from Xi Thought?

    fredw

    "There are internet comments that life for workers in Hong Kong has degraded significantly in the last 20 years." That is very very interesting. I have been viewing Chinese development as raising the level elsewhere. If welfare is falling in Hong Kong, this could be more intractable than I thought. It certainly is turning out more intractable than the authorities who provoked it thought. Otherwise they would have made their move and settled it by now.

    I have to think, though, that the resistance that counts is coming from outside Hong Kong itself. The peculiarities of Hong Kong's status are useful and profitable to people with way more power and influence than the unfortunate citizens of Hong Kong, If something is staying the hand of the authorities, it is more likely those people.

    I agree with the Colonel, though, that this almost certainly ends in blood. The authorities don't actually have to win, but they have to be able to claim a win. It is hard to see how they can let this go on and then claim a win.

    different clue

    Has one considered the possibility that these violent "protesters" are in fact secret false-flag hidden-hand black-advance Mainland China CCP agents-provacateurs? That their mission is to defame the protests and also to create a "situation" for the Mainland Forces to come in and "solve"?

    Something like various false-flag police in Western countries who join protests in Black Bloc cover in order to create the violence needed to justify mass arrests?

    fredw

    "...many, many videos that show the police brutality and videos of collusion between police and thugs."

    I have the feeling that you and I would not agree on a lot, but we are shoulder to shoulder on this one. Appeals for obeying rules are at best simplistic in societies whose elites rule by violence. Permits? Their only purpose is to enable the authorities to deny them. Violence? Tell it to the casualties from the metro station attacks. When the Ukrainian Berkut started turning up in the forest as victims rather than perpetrators, I could not bring any conviction to condemnation of the protesters. Not that I am in favor of such things, but you have to operate in the environment you have.

    Permits make perfect sense when there is enough acceptance and mutual respect to enable compromises. But you can't compromise with a tiger when he has your head in his mouth.

    Barbara Ann

    b

    The CCP has indeed achieved the most astonishing mass emancipation from poverty in human history. It is also without doubt "the most repressive and totalitarian political force in the world today", as blue peacock writes.

    If I were mainland Han Chinese I would likely consider the CCP a force for good. If, however, I were Uighur, Tibetan, HKer, Falun Gong, a Jehovah's Witness or a member of any other unapproved minority group, I suspect I may not.

    Jim S

    I was heartened to read your account. I would do well to remember that China is a big country and full of its own diversity. I was also pointedly reminded that I ought to have said 'migrant workers' rather than peasants.

    You've seen that I'm quite gloomy about communism's influence on Chinese society; however, Russia's culture and spirituality seems to have rebounded in the post-post-Soviet era (not that Russia doesn't still have problems) and your comment feeds my hope for China. What is your take?

    Would you feel comfortable making your same trip today? I wouldn't make my most recent trip again, but not necessarily out of concern for myself.

    different clue

    If you are referring to Babak Makkinejad's comment up above, it certainly seemed like the real good-old Babak Makkinejad to me. It has the familiar style, faithful restating of past themes, etc.

    Of course I don't know if it is coming from the very same computer as Babak Makkinejad used to comment from, or what other digital tags and identifiers may reveal.

    But it sure feels real to me.

    different clue

    ( Not that Black Bloc doesn't create its own recreational violence to revel and wallow in. It does.)

    TonyL

    I agreed with Colonel Land and Walrus.

    To other members of this committe of correspondence, please read and understand what Walrus said:

    "I’m afraid some people don’t understand the significance of these demonstrations. To put it bluntly, as Col. Lang and I have tried to explain, they represent an existential threat to the existence of a Chinese nation. The Chinese Government response, quite rightly in my opinion, is going to be proportionate and violent up to and including the destruction of the city state and its population. To understand this you must NOT try to view this through a Western liberal democratic prism.

    By their nature and cultural traditions the Chinese do not adhere to the idea of higher loyalties much outside their extended family. The concept of nationalism or any other “ism” is foreign and is supported in China only as far as it provides goods, services and opportunities to the family and no further. If the “ism” doesn’t deliver, then it is discarded. The “current “ism” is a CCP led China as one nation. It has delivered massive benefits to the man in the street and is therefore tolerated. The alternative to this is not some liberal democratic paradise, it is China breaking up into fragmentary, warring city states as has occurred for much of China’s history. China, one China, is ungovernable without very strong, dictatorial, autocratic central control. Hong Kong is directly threatening this model.

    This is encapsulated in the old Chinese saying: “we bow in awe at the power and magnificence of the Emperor in Beijing, but the mountains are high” - meaning that Government control exists only as far as it can be enforced. Seen in that light, the CCP social credit computer system is not some devilish device to turn people into mindless automatons but a perhaps heavy handed attempt to try and get Chinese to think of the national interest as most Americans automatically do."

    I could elaborate more about the Chinese history/culture/mentality, but Walrus has so astutely described it above. For a moment, forget about your conservative or liberal point of view, if you wish to understand it better.

    fredw

    I agree with the description of Chinese attitudes and priorities, but not that this is an existential threat. The initiative is with the authorities. They provoked this. The protesters are reacting to the authorities' initiatives. They have shown no evidence of organization or goal oriented behavior, just rejection of an unmotivated aggression on what they have come to see as their normal. This is in contrast to Falun Gong, which really was an existential threat in ways that westerners mostly fail to understand.

    John Minehan

    But it was (nominally, at least) a republic and had a codified law, the letter of which was observed, as in the case of St. Paul.

    TonyL

    fredw,

    Yes, I do agree that the HK authorities made a fatal mistake in not withdrawing the extradition bill completely. And I also believe the protest started organically. But since then, has it been poisoned by some unhelpful actions by the NGOs behind the scene (sorry I have no citation about this)?

    But I disagree that this is not considered an existential threat by the CPP.

    The CCP is preparing and live stream their drill:
    https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/08/article/another-drill-held-near-hk-this-time-by-chinas-police/

    We can only hope that when the time comes, the HK protesters will "be like water" and retreat, to live and fight another day.

    John Minehan

    Well, the good news is it wasn't problem **that** Monday. I hope the trend continues . . . .

    Jim Ticehurst

    I think The Hong Kong matter will be resolved this month with Negotiations and agreements that will Tone things down for now and end the Protests..will end enough for Social functions to resume..I think there will be enough Trade Agreements with The Trump Administration to Appease both Sides for Now..It will Strategic..and only settle Current Conflicts..I think The CCP will Indeed Wait this out Until Our Next Elections for President as they Once Stated they would...Many Geo..Political Events and Power Plays will Come to Global Points by The..And The Spear Points will Be Forged...Elections In England..Germany..Europe..Africa..The Americas..and New Dynamics and Events will Be in Play..Either Resulting in Wars..among Some..or a New World Order by the Globalist..If Global Weather changes creat Droughts and Commodity Shortages..That will Play into the Hands of the Radical Socialists Game Book..and Their chances of Gaining Power in The United States will be Much Greater..especially if Most of the otherAmericas are so Socialist They line up and Creat New Alliances and Axis of Power..Alot can happen by Next Year..Current dynamics Have . a Super Natural Feel,,,Anything is Possible Now..Like the Crash of Civilazitions..

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