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06 June 2018

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steve

What an excellent article.

Thank you.

Do you foresee any successful mass movement on the part of the Palestinians to replace the corrupt and Israeli-serving PA? Any successful effort to overcome the PA-Hamas split with a united political entity serving the Palestinians' interests?

FB Ali

As usual, David Habakkuk presents a comprehensive and penetrating review of the subject. His conclusions are solidly based on the evidence he presents.

However, the practical issue remains: to what extent do the shifts in public opinion in the US and Britain weaken the hold of the pro-Israel lobbies which essentially control the policy on this matter in both countries? I see no signs of that, nor does David Habakkuk present any evidence in that behalf. So long as these lobbies control government policies, it is likely that the present “suicidal” attitudes and efforts of both Israel and its supporters will continue.

Matthew


The problem with polling is that "donor opinion" is vastly more important than "popular opinion" in both the USA and UK. We delude ourselves into thinking that if Israel's polling numbers keep sliding, that will produce a change in policy. Not unless it affects campaign donations...

William R. Cumming

An important post worth much study IMO! My question is simple in the asking but not in answering.
To what extent are the motivations now and in the past and importantly in the future driven by the need to protect Judiasm as a religion from actual threats (e.g.another holocaust) and other threats, real or imagined?
Is that what the theocracy known as Israel is all about in its formation and operations and polity?
On the record I have a number of friends rejected from Israeli citizenship because their mothers were not practicing Jews or non-practicing Jews!
And I am certainly the last to comment on church and state relationships anywhere or anyplace. I do live in Virginia which prior to
Tom Jefferson had an established state religion.
Nonconformists not welcome here long ago and perhaps even today!

Byron Raum

It appears that the freedom-hating Islamists have natural friends in authoritarian China. Which is to our loss: the real price of Islamophobia is loss of empire.

Till now, we have had the luxury of supporting Israel's excesses (which is always conflated with supporting Israel's survival.) What happens when we can't?

LeaNder

The use of the post-war taboo on anti-Semitism, which arises out of the Holocaust, to stifle criticism of Israeli policy tends to create a particularly toxic form of resentment, which comes when people are prevented from expressing thoughts and feelings they regard as perfectly legitimate – while enabling those creating resentment to blind themselves to the fact they are creating it.

I like this a lot, all of it actually.

But the above is what it is all about in a nutshell. The problem is that it dilutes antisemitism and yes it makes very, very angry.

You have one side that dictates the rules with continuously more vague definitions of antisemitism.

I give you two of "my friend" Richard Witty on Mondoweiss. They seem both based on the European "Working definition of Antisemitism" linked in the Jews sans frontiers above:

Richard Witty May 12, 2010 at 3:32 pm

There are 2+ definitions of anti-semitism:

1. Prejudice against an individual because they were born Jewish, of Jewish blood (race)
2. Prejudice towards communities of Jews that freely associate, and in the case of Israel self-govern. (Proceeding to governance, a state, is not a necissity, but it is an association). Anti-semitism towards the community is also anti-semitism. Its possible to not be prejudiced towards individuals (good assimilated Jews), but still be prejudiced towards the community.

To be free of anti-semitism would require acceptance of both.

again and again, I am noble and you may well be antisemites:
Richard Witty March 21, 2011 at 2:56 pm

There are two definitions of anti-semitism:

1. The prejudices directed against individuals that were born Jewish and are residually Jewish.
2. The prejudices directed against individuals and communities that are actively Jewish.

The left affirms that 1 is appalling while 2 is acceptable.

I challenged his use of race, so his extensive use of race, blood and living space has no disappeared, see e.g. here:Entry 24: Who is a Jew? Who is not a Jew?

To my mind, the Jewish mission, the covenant of Jewish obligation to cultivate the sensitivity and skillsets to make whole what is disparate is critical to continue. I will and do “teach my children”, both racially through mother’s genes and culturally through pragmatic compassion, prayer and good deeds.
David Habakkuk

Steve,

Palestinian politics is not a matter on which I have expertise, but I am inclined to be rather more charitable to the PA than some. I think that they bought into a central assumption underlying the whole Oslo process. It was obvious that the attempt to hold on to the 1967 territorial gains would lead naturally to Jews becoming a minority in the Greater Israel thus created. It seemed natural to conclude that the Israeli leadership, precisely because they were Zionists, would want to avoid this. Accordingly, it also seemed natural to conclude that the route to a settlement was through gestures of reassurance by the Palestinians so as to convince the Israelis that they were genuinely reconciled to Israel within its 1967 borders. This logic, although it seemed plausible enough, always sat uneasily with the continuation of the settlement process under Rabin and Peres. It was effectively tested to destruction in the negotiations of which we caught such fascinating glimpses in the 'Palestine Papers'.

A key point about this logic is that it suggested that the Palestinians did not need to develop any of the forms of pressure which movements against foreign occupiers have characteristically used. It is now evident that forms of pressure need to be created -- the question is what and how.

F B Ali, Matthew.

It is important to distinguish between short run and long run changes. The position of the Israeli lobby in Britain reminds me of that of the trade union movement some decades ago. That union power was a problem was evident in the late Sixties. That it was having crippling effects on the economy, and perverting the democratic process, was made amply clear when the National Union of Mineworkers destroyed the Heath government in 1974. Under the Wilson and Callaghan governments in 1974-9, union power appeared to be at its zenith. But by that time the foundations of that power had been hollowed out - precisely because those who exercised it had overreached themselves with the same kind of arrogance,sense of entitlement, and disregard for the interests of their fellow countrymen now displayed by the American and British Israeli lobbies. When challenged by Thatcher, the power of the unions simply collapsed.

Today it is the Israeli lobbies in the United States and Britain -- together with a financial sector running amok -- who are making effective government impossible and perverting the democratic process. The former will certainly go the way of the British union movement. But it will take time.

Certainly, it is hard to see the stranglehold of the Israeli lobbies disappearing before they have finally put paid to such chances of survival as the Zionist enterprise still has.

Adam L. Silverman

Mr. Habakkuk: excellent piece. It always seems to me that thinking of the US-Israel relationship as the dysfunctional one between an enabling individual and an addict makes a lot of sense. In this analysis Israel is the addict, the US is the enabler, and the neo-Cons are the pushers. I think what you've written captures the essence of this type of dysfunctional relationship.

euclidcreek

The questions of who is a jew and what is antisemitism, and who is responsible for the care and protection of the State of Israel seem to take up an awful lot of space on SST and in the media. Don't look now, but the United States is falling apart and the abject state of Detroit (for example) doesn't rate a mention. Maybe we can all move to a settlement in the occupied territories, where we could carry automatic weapons, get subsidized housing and free healthcare.

Ken Hoop

Richard Witty of course sanctions and idealizes Orthodox rabbis " building a fence around Torah" on Mondoweiss. IOW he sanctions racism of the Jewish variety as elaborated there. In past eras when Judaism proselityzed widely,it was not racist. As practised by the Zionist rabbinate is it racist to the core.

And of course Witty ignores the subjective social construct aspect which of course demystifies the whole thing. Specifically, Judaism used to define Jewish identity patrilineally. When the rabbinical consensus decided to switch, it constructed a system in which a multitude, perhaps most modern Jews would not be Jews by the original patrilineal mythical construct.

Yet the Wittys of the world are permitted to idealize a certain kind of racism in the way no other American ethnicities are,and particularly if the consequential oppression of the Other was ongoing.

Patrick Lang

euclidcreek

this blog is about my interests. I can do nothing about detroit. I don't have subsidized housing any longer, but I have been known to carry a gun. pl

optimax

david habakkuk,

i always admire your thinking. coupled with clifford's link to the paper which shows the neurotic need of zionists to control public discourse, limit reservoirs of knowledge and freedom for only them to propagandize, proves their goal is totalitarian control of us gov and people. there is light in that more people are becoming aware and good people like phil weiss are working to educate the jewish community from within.
the zionists are so neurotic they don't trust anyone who tries to show them there is a higher ground. evidenced by the fact they try to marginalize critics of injustice like the col.--who, if they opened their hearts would realize are good friends.
the sound of one hand typing.

Fred

euclidcreek,

Few have cared about Detroit since '68 or so, though Mayor Bing seems to be doing a good job given the daunting tasks ahead of him. The city is far better for his hard work, at 70+ he sure didn't need the job (and unlike Bloomberg didn't need to spend $100 million to get it); last time I looked there's no riots or National Guard on the streets (a lack of salt trucks on those same streets last snowstorm did get someone fired, so there's progress!). I'll be sure to take another look Saturday when I meet my Canadian friends at the Joe to see the Leafs lose one more time, but that's another story.

Fiorangela

March 24, 1933, the day that the London Daily Express displayed the banner headline: "Judea Declares War on Germany." "Jews of All the World Unite."
http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/articles/jdecwar.html

Eyad

this is intersthing subj but you know a palestine can not have in it even one jewish this is not for something leaders can have debates so at the same time it is important for us to return to our homes where they are this is anyplace so this is one state called palestine that is it no one ever believes 2 states bec this was only for this time not for much time

optimax

the last form i was given today before minor surgery on the elbow was a valuntary one with a single question, was i hispanic or not? that makes 2 groups of white people that got themselves designed a constitutionaly affirmed minority. both are mucking their way to power.

Cal

I have been curious about the Jews and Zionism ever since I took a dislike to Israel about 11 years ago. And after 11 years of trying to find the very first instance of anti semitism and persecution and 'the causes' all the way back to creation I basically decided that Jews were a tribe that decided being victims was a handy tool for beseeching various Kings and Queens throughout history for special protection in return for their services to whatever rule....services that usually made the Jews very unpopular with the common masses. Needless to say history has many victims and persecuted enthic and religious groups but the Jews, unlike most other victims, made it their speciality.
Then the zionist of the 1800's turned it into a full blown cult. And it's been the longest running con game in the universe ever since.

If you've ever tried to have a sane and logical conversation with a zionist, with all their religious mysticism and 'people-hood" and victim hood and their inferiority complex posing as superiority...forget it..you can't get through to that kind of primitive mentality.

Jackqline Rose, a zionist (lite) herself, wrote a book 'The Question of Zion' in which she thoerized that zionism attracted mentally mal adjusted individuals. I am sure she would include the Christian zionist too although she didn't mention them specifically.

Best book written that busts all the myths Jews created around themselves/ Israel/Zionism:

"The Invention of the Jewish People" by Shlomo Sand

http://www.amazon.com/Invention-Jewish-People-Shlomo-Sand/dp/1844674223

If you are a bible believer you will hate it because science and real history destroys the whole Jewish narrative about Jews as "unique people" with a right/claim to 'self determination" in Israel.

LeaNder

Then the zionist of the 1800's turned it into a full blown cult. And it's been the longest running con game in the universe ever since.

Cal, maybe 11 years aren't enough to understand?

If you are really interested in the historical context of the roots of Herzl's Zionism, political Zionism, I'd suggest you read the book by Marcel Stoelzler: The Nation, the State and the Jews. Liberalism and the Antisemitism Dispute in Bismarck's Germany

You cannot understand 19th century Zionism without understanding the impact of 19th nationalism with it's developing foundation myth, especially the questions of who belongs and who doesn't. The "late nation" (die späte Nation) Germany is a good place to study, if you are really trying to understand.

The 19th century gave Zionism it's special nationalist bend, which doesn't mean there were only political or nationalist Zionists, many were cultural Zionists too.

LeaNder

Fiorangela, yes, there was a Jewish boycott of Nazi Germany, justifiably so, and yes the Nazis cooperated with the Zionists. And yes again, German Jews thought it would endanger them even more, and Zionists supported the Nazis in this respect: Argued against it.

But if you look closer the Nazis didn't believe "the Jews" would be able to create a state. As they felt that such a state would endanger their vision of the future 1.000 years German rule with it's World Capital Germania

If the article you linked to states something similar, then please excuse my comment, I tend to overreact on half-truth on the issue. I have no time to read it now, but have read quite a bit about the topic already.

William R. Cumming

Fiorangela and LeaNder! There is no doubt in my mind that the Arabs would have suffered the fate of the Jews if the NAZI Reich had reached its zenith. And of course anti-semitism was a core belief for the NAZIs!

The beaver

Col.
FYI:
Eyad has gone through the filter !
English is garbled :-)

MRW

LeaNder,

An even better and much shorter thing to read to understand Zionism's historical context is historian (and Jewish) Gabriel Kolko's 2007 article: Israel: Mythologizing a 20th Century Accident
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/kolko.php?articleid=11058

It started in Austria, not Germany, after all.

Cal

LeaNder...

Well, 11 years of more research than even Jews or more specifically zionist do on themselves, judging by the wildly inaccurate statements they make that conflict with real history, is long enough to determine that they keep repeating the same pattern over and over...pre and post zionism.

And yes, I am familiar with the line of thought that claims zionism arose due to 19th century nationalism.

But I don't really agree.
The seeds of zionism, the seperateness, the uniqueness, were in the Jewish culture since at least the 1400's which was as far back as I could go and be able to count on the material as objective and factual. It just took a manic depressive like Herzl to start turning Judaism into a nationalistic 'peoplehood' movement.
Sweeping nationalism was the table they spread their map on but the culture zionism sprung from was already there.

Maybe you could call nationalism the 'launching pad' for modern zionism or maybe not-- but I think we would all agree that the holocaust was the launching pad for Israel.
And IMO it was a huge mistake for the Jews and everyone else...certainly for the US.

Cal

LeaNder,

You said..."Fiorangela, yes, there was a Jewish boycott of Nazi Germany, justifiably so,"

The Jewish congress didn't just call for Jews to boycott Germany, they called for --- "America to boycott German goods".

And therein lies the problem...without going into whether or not we should have.
And I don't have to explain it because the Jewish idea that they have the right to dictate and manipulate the policy of countries in which they are a small minority and for strictly their own people or tribal benefit continues to this day to the detriment of the majority as we all see. This is the attitude that gave rise to some of the old canards about the Jews.

I also doubt that the Nazis thought at the time that a small Jewish colony in Palestine would be a threat to the German Empire, but if you can provide me something on why Germany feared that I will be glad to read it.

Can the Jews build a viable state? The CIA Country Congressional report of 2006 says Israel is still not a self sustaining State and relies on foreign aid to meet it's obligations.
It is not even in question that without US support, influence and strong arming in the ME in Israel's favor Israel would long since have ceased to exist.
After 60 years, judging by their current state, it's looking like the Jews or Israelis actually are not capable of governing themselves or anyone else.
What have the 'World Jews" accomplished in Israel on their own except funneling trillions of other countries dollars into making the desert bloom, corroding the US own national interest and now creating religious fascist state and untold trouble for everyone associated with them and around them?
I am one who does not think, because of long observation, that the Zionist mentality will change. I could be pleasantly surprised, but I doubt it.

I would suggest that those interested in 'real' history and facts concerning Israel, recorded by people on the ground, start here:

http://www.archiveeditions.co.uk/titledetails.asp?tid=124
These ten volumes draw together documents found in the British National Archives to trace the origins and development of the Zionist movement in the 19th and 20th centuries, with specific reference to the idea, and eventually the goal, of establishing a Jewish homeland.

Then to understand all the ‘activities’ of the Jews in the US start with the Truman Presidential Library, just put Israel in the search function. Then go on to the Carter Presidential Library and read the oral history of John Gunther Dean, a German Jew and US Amb to Lebanon for Zionist attitudes in Germany and for Israeli activities in the ME. Then in Eisenhower’s Presidential Library you can find a copy of the letter he sent to Israel’s PM telling him that US policy decisions on the ME would be made , quote...“as if there was not a single Jew in the US” ...the occasion of this letter was a implied ‘threat’ by Israel’s PM to Eisenhower that Israel would control the US Jews in the next US election against Eisenhower if he didn’t agree to Israel’s demands.

And then if you have time go to Thomas.gov to monitor the trade bills, exemptions, resolutions and the hundreds of other 'giveaways' churned out by congress for Israel.
Also you can now check out earmarks by congressperps like Ackerman who inserted millions worth of earmarks for Israeli hospitals and medical facilities while Americans were standing in line at free health clinics not provided by tax dollars but by altruistic medical professionals on their own dime and also see that most of his earmark spending of our tax dollars went to strictly Jewish projects.
http://www.house.gov/list/press/ny05_ackerman/PR_032609.html

And this one on Ackerman’s earmarks list just boggles the mind:
“Ysrael A. Seinuk, P.C. Consulting Engineers (Manhattan, NY) – Increase the company’s workforce – $2,300,000 – Funding would be used to hire additional staff so they can better serve their government clients.”
See if you find a government client in the company listed profile or projects..but you can find a Jewish Heritage Center they are working on as well as believe it or not Trump Towers.
So Ackerman gives 2.3 million to a billion dollar private company so they can hire more people? What do you suppose they used the money for?
http://www.yaseinuk.com/yas_profile.cfm

We all can read the rants/opinions about Israel and their lobby and the competing hasbara spin but there ‘s nothing like going to the horses mouth to confirm the facts for yourself.
If Israel disappeared tomorrow or if better yet, it’s friends in our government did, if might upset the Jews but it would be good for America and Americans and others.

Harper

Last spring, the Israeli ambassador in Washington (who happens to be a dual U.S. and Israeli citizen) Michael Oren made an emergency visit back to the Israeli Foreign Ministry, where he warned all the top Israeli diplomats that he sees a "techtonic shift" in the official U.S. institutional attitude towards Israel. Among the tell-tale signs that Oren correctly identified: The widespread popularity of the Walt-Mearsheim book about the Israel Lobby, which remained on the non-fiction best seller lists for a long time. Neither professor was fired by Harvard or the University of Chicago, respectively, and their academic credentials were, in fact, enhanced by their effort to reveal the inner workings of the Israel Lobby and their tangled web with the Israeli government.

More recently, Anthony Cordesman, of the Center for Strategic and International Studies, had penned an essay daring to ask, following the Gaza flotilla attack, whether Israel had become a strategic liability for the United States. Cordesman's implied answer was a resounding "yes."

All of this is to say that, while the Israeli Lobby and Israeli government can squeeze an American president and congress still, in the near term, the influence of the Israel Lobby is diminishing significantly, and their ability to push around U.S. institutions, from the Pentagon to the intelligence community to the diplomatic corps is waning rapidly.

Note that during the period of the Tunisian and Egyptian revolutions, top Israeli diplomats could not, I am told, even get their American counterparts on the phone. Whether or not he retracted his remarks under pressure, Gen. David Petraeus did tell a Senate committe that the U.S.-Israeli relationship is jeopardizing the safety of American troops throughout the Islamic world. He was CENTCOM commander at the time, so he ought to know.

The era of tolerance for bigoted theocracies is coming to an end, and that will bite both Israel and Saudi Arabia (and Iran) in the ass at some point very soon. There are offsetting factors, like oil geopolitics that will mitigate against most American officials saying what they really think about the Saudis, but the tolerance is diminishing rapidly.

The Cold War ended 20 years ago, and Israeli's role as an adjunct to NATO (why else did Israel build an arsenal of 200-plus nuclear warheads with delivery sytems to match)? Certainly not to use against the Palestinians, Syria, Iraq, or even Iran. The scale of the Israeli nuclear arsenal was part of our Cold War second strike capability, even as Israel was playing both ends against the middle,as the Jonathan Pollard case illustrated most clearly.

Bottom line: Israel is no longer what it was under the Cold War alignments. It is just a country that is engaging in suicidal self-isolating policies for ideological and theological reasons. The whole thing smacks of Shakespearian tragedy. When a society is incapable of changing their axioms, when those axioms are leading to their eventual self-destruction, that is tragic. The Rabin assassination was just the clearest indication of how wedded the Israeli rightwing and religious extremists are to their delusions. When Rabin dared to step towards a change, he was assassinated. I don't know what would have come of Oslo had Rabin lived, but I do know that his assassination led to the political apparatus that either planned or celebrated his assassination being put in perpetual power in Tel Aviv.

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