« The IRS Website Crashed Last Week, And They'll Probably Blame This On The Russians Too. -- by J | Main | "Scarier Than John Bolton?" by Phil Geraldi »

23 April 2018

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

Ulenspiegel

Paulus has authority because there was a Saulus before. :-)

The teacher who gave me most to think about was a pastor who taught religious education in my highschool. He joint the German Wehrmacht as 17 years old teenager and convinced Nazi. Then he survived four years Ostfront as enlisted man in a combat engineer company, outfits with a horribly high loss rate. In 1945 he was completely cured.

With his RL background he had authority and was usually able to challenge us students with morale dilemmas and with his deep historic knowledge he was able to fill some of the boring bible stuff with life.

Ryan

Yes, their graves should be decorated, but with which flag? The Fleur de lis of the French monarchy or the Tricolor?

I would hope that Napoleon might have combine the lineage of these fine old regiments with the ones that he lead. The US Army has done this in the past with former regiments of the Confederate Army. An example would be the 121st Infantry of the 8th Infantry Division. On the colors are a number of battle streamers with names like Chancellorville, Frederickburg, etc. These streamers were won by the original unit, The Macon Volunteers of Georgia. At some point someone came up with this bright idea. I'm glad they did, being from Georgia and having served in one of the battalions back during the first Gulf War. Whether this practice is still done today I don't know, political correctness being what it is. It probably still is as most people (including the US Army) don't know squat about American History, particulalry Military history.

turcopolier

Ryan

Regular Army units of the US Army do not descend from former Confederate units but there are many units of the Army National Guard that were Confederate. Some of them existed long before the WBS as militia units of the states. Some were colonial. This is true of the 116th Infantry of the Virginia National Guard. This is an 18th Century militia unit that became the Stonewall Brigade in the WBS. In WW2 the 116th was part of the assault force on Omaha Beach. There are similar units in the New England National Guard, for example, the 182nd Infantry of the Mass Guard, founded around 1630 as the West Regiment of militia. This is the oldest unit of the US Army. Today National Guard units are called to active duty to serve for a while with regular units like the 8th Division. pl

Ryan Murphy

I understand, colonel. What I meant was that after being federalized for WWII as in the case of the 8th ID some of these units weren't stood down at the end of the war and went on to remain active duty units for a number of years.

In any case my main point was this is the practice was done with the US Army. In too many cases following a revolution or some other event the good gets thrown away with the bad. The Preobrazhensky Regiment is an example of this following the Bolshevik Revolution.

Regarding the rest of your reply I wasn't aware that the 116th Inf descended from the Stonewall Bde nor was I aware of the history of the 182nd Inf being the oldest unit of the US Army. Thanks for adding to my knowledge.

By the way, do you have an opinion on which flag should be flown over those brave men at Yorktown?

turcopolier

Ryan Murphy

The flag of the Kingdom of France seems appropriate. pl

Ryan Murphy

I concur, sir.

Troops should be buried under the colors they fought for.

The only people who would object to this in France are the same sort of nuts we have here who get upset when the UDC and the SCV place battle flags on the graves of Confederate dead. Unfortunately, this has become more common place as the nation further descends into cultural Marxism.

It turns out I answered my own question above on whether the French carried on the lineage of these old units to today. They do according to this:

http://xenophongroup.com/mcjoynt/regts.htm

There's a slew of them, colonel, who we can remember as well who fought in other places to add to those of Yorktown.

People who are curious to see what the uniforms looked like for these units can find them here:

http://pfef.free.fr/Page_Principale.htm

Ryan

I consider myself lucky. My parents took me to Yorktown many years ago. Redoubts Nine and Ten were wonderfully preserved. All hail the Americans and French who took them.

ex-PFC Chuck

re "Can debts of soldiers and sailors lives ever be repaid in full?"
The only meaningful way to try is to do what we can to pay it forward. When the final session of the Constitutional Convention adjourned in 1787, a Mrs. Powel of Philadelphia approached Benjamin Franklin and said, “Well, Doctor, what have we got—a Republic or a Monarchy?” He replied, “A Republic, if you can keep it." We are in the midst of one of those recurring periods during which it is not at all certain we are going to keep it, and the threat is all the more insidious because the threat today is not external but internal in the form of a wealth and power grab by the elites, led by those in control of the financial and energy industries. As John Michael Greer points out in a recent blog post that channels Arnold Toynbee:As long as the political class of a civilization can inspire admiration and affection from those below it, the civilization thrives, because the shared sense of values and purpose generated by mimesis keeps the pressures of competing class interests from tearing it apart. . . Civilizations fail, in turn, because their political classes lose the ability to inspire mimesis, and this happens in turn because members of the elite become so fixated on maintaining their own power and privilege that they stop doing an adequate job of addressing the problems facing their society. As those problems spin further and further out of control, the political class loses the ability to inspire and settles instead for the ability to dominate. Outside the political class and its hangers-on, in turn, more and more of the population becomes what Toynbee calls an internal proletariat, an increasingly sullen underclass that still provides the political class with its cannon fodder and labor force but no longer sees anything to admire or emulate in those who order it around."
http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-broken-thread-of-culture.html

steve

Here's a nice video of a reenactment of the Regiment Saintonge fife and drum corp doing Yankee Doodle, and other American tunes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMg-PHszyDM

alba etie

Col Lang
I am grateful to see this post from a year ago . I am pretty sure I was trying to make the point that I admired Pope Francis because he had experienced being a bouncer in a bar , I thought that might inform his Papacy to have that 'street level view' of the world. I do not believe in predestination . And still maintain that my good friend Jim - the professed Bhuddist is in Heaven even though he never came to Jesus .
Though one of my favorite poets is still Carl Sandburg , and his best poem IMO is "To a Contemporary Bunkshooter ". But I probably should be careful about posting anymore theological musings here at SST , as its a very difficult subject for many of us .

alba etie

Steve
They also did a very spirited cover of 'Oh Susanna !"

oofda

Thanks again Colonel for reminding us of the heavy losses the French regiments suffered at Yorktown. There a lot of names on that list, and we should remember them.

Somewhat on topic, in central South Dakota, on a bluff overlooking the Missouri River outside Fort Pierre, there is a monument to the La Verendrye brothers of New France who claimed the land for Louis VX in 1741. They left an inscribed lead plate to record their claim, it was found in 1913. At the place where the lead plate was found, three flags now fly- the U.S. flag, the South Dakota state flag and the flag of France- not the Tricolor, but the Fleur-de-Lis flag of that time.

Brad Ruble

My father was in the 755th tank Battalion. We didn't talk a lot about it, but from what I remember they trained with French/North African troops in North Africa. I think they went into Italy in October of 1943. He said they lost half their outfit the first month. I'm not sure that is accurate but he was there and I will take his word. They worked with the French. I remember him calling them Gomas. I asked him what kind of troops they were and he said " Oh hell, they're as good as anybody else. It all depends on their officers". He liked Patton. He said Patton didn't blame the troops.

turcopolier

Brad Ruble

http://755thtank.net/index.html I had never heard of this outfit. Juin must have been short of armor and the 755th was attached to him for that reason. The term in the French Army for the Moroccan soldiers was "goumiers" this is a French version of the Arabic word "qawmi" meaning a tribal, ethnic fighter. I had a colleague in the faculty at West Point who had been an officer in Juin's force in Italy and was badle wounded while a liaison with Truscott at Anzio. He taught French and was much feared by the cadets whom he treated as the children that they were. pl

Patrick Bahzad

In addition to PL's comment about Italy campaign, and questions asked about which troops were involved, there were moroccan "goumiers" regiments made up of Tabor mountain warriors from the atlas mountain range. They played a decisive role in the final assault that managed to get the Poles the break through.
As for the Spahis, their legend lives on in the "1er regiment de spahis" which is an armoured cavalry regiment nowadays. Pretty decent outfit BTW.

Patrick Bahzad

Well the french troops in booth the 7 year war and the American war of independence were much better professional soldiers than their British army counterparts. The fact France lost the war in 1763 had nothing to do with combat ability of these ground troops. I would have had any of those units mentioned above over any British or hessian regiment !

Patrick Bahzad

Sure but nor Hakeim was a side show ... Just something to boost the severely crumbling french morale after the defeat of 1940. As for that other legend, again I'd compare the french army's track record over that of the Brits any day of the week !

Patrick Bahzad

There was no conscription at the time in the French army. These were all enlisted or professional men. Conscription not came with the French revolution.

Patrick Bahzad

True but the freedom fries story got more to,do with french experience in arab and Muslim countries and total US inexperience and deliberate blindness at the top !

Patrick Bahzad

It's mostly a British thing though because they used to get scared shitless when facing french army regiments .. And for anybody wanting to reply, remember, I said army, not navy !

Patrick Bahzad

Civil war worse in south than WWI in eastern France ? No it wasn't ! And judging by the body count on a national basis, WWI was worse as well

Patrick Bahzad

But mark the French did give up just like that when the german invasion happened ... Some troops fought bravely and France lost 100 000 men during those few months in 1940. But the fact is the country was internally divided and that was the biggest reason for the "surrender" ... Fighting spirit would have needed a man of national stature to carry on the fight. De Gaulle at that point was a largely unknown quantity though. Shame ...
I seriously doubt your figures regarding german and Italian casualties though. The Germans lost 15 000 men no more.

Patrick Bahzad

There may have been many Europeans but there was only one European country that fought at the side of the Soon to be US !

Patrick Bahzad

Actually these two ladies hated each other and would have been at each other's throat in other circumstances ... I don't remember them holding hands either but could be mistaken. I know both the official and unofficial family of the deceased were present though that is true.

Ulenspiegel

What was the problem with the French in 1756-63? How do you explain their performance at Minden?

The comments to this entry are closed.

My Photo

February 2021

Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat
  1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28            
Blog powered by Typepad