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11 March 2018

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james

i don't know what sj's stands for..

i agree with him... 22 million to research into ufo's isn't chump change though...

turcopolier

james

In MBTI terms SJs are the kind of people who make the trains run on time. You are not one. pl

Jeannie Catherine

Very intriguing, indeed. "Mysterious object seen streaking over the Atlantic Ocean by US Navy jet."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=11&v=wxVRg7LLaQA

james

thanks pat... i am an infj according to the myer briggs test.. what are you?

ToivoS

Now I am really puzzled. From my first reading of this post it seemed to say that various US military intelligence groups had been collecting information that suggested if it had all been properly analyzed in some coordinated way then the US should have already known about all of those different missile systems Putin revealed last week. Is the Mellon heir talking about UFOs? Not UFOs made by Russia and China, but those from some alien civilization?

Eric Newhill

I was never involved in UFO research, but I do know quite a bit about related phenomena (related if you're in the camp of someone like Jacques Valle) such as psi, remote viewing, out of body experiences, NDEs, mediumship and telekinesis.

IMO, all this stuff has proven to be real beyond a shadow of doubt. If you'd seen what I have, you'd probably come to the same conclusion; practical and reliable in terms of serious real world application? Not so much in most cases, but real all the same.

Several problems present in the research alone, generally. One is that these topics attract a lot of charlatans,or honest, but delusional people and then over-eager believers that do not properly evaluate evidence and experiment results. It is very challenging, given resource restraints, to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Second, given how ubiquitous the issues involved in problem #1 are, there is a stigma attached to anyone who takes the study seriously. No one wants that stigma. It's a career killer.

Third, this stuff is scary to a lot of people. It threatens to undermine the model of reality that has been developed and that has served our material needs so well since the enlightenment. What does one do with the information? How would one shape policy? How would one maintain control of society in light of a vastly expanded knowledge of the universe? There are also meaningful impacts at a personal level that involve paradigm shifting ramifications. Most people do not like to have their worlds rocked that heavily. It's human nature. So much easier to dismiss it all as silliness.

Now, regarding UFOs - the challenges to study are increased beyond the other phenomena b/c you can't test it in a lab environment. You can't summon UFOs to appear for a study, let alone a controlled study. There are a host of variables in any chance encounter that preclude a scientific approach that can reach a definitive conclusion. Until one of these things is captured (assuming there is anything to capture) and studied in an open peer review atmosphere, we will have to rely on conjecture. Also, just because you capture one, doesn't mean that you understand *all* related phenomena. To properly study, you would need to capture a sufficient sample. That said, if you did obtain even one of extraterrestrial origin, then the door would be opened permanently for the new paradigm.

JW

That isn't the only problem. At least with UFO's you can see them, hence then be able to pronounce them as unidentified, ie., as part of the set of known unknowns (you know whats coming next..).
If Mellon is saying that the known unknowns are a gap in the plan, then the unknown unknowns are going to be an additional gap which he could have but did not discuss.

Charles

In government, 22mill is not even large enough to be rounding error.
In your own retirement account it is significant, unless you are Bill Gates in which case it is rounding error.

different clue

I used to read about these kinds of things. Since the US government and perhaps other governments refuse to give proper open-minded consideration into what this all could be, it has been left to private people and organizations to piece together what they can. Their books and papers have all been dismissed by the Official Keepers of the Conventional Wisdom. Even though some of the authors have been thoroughly respectable people.

Ivan T. Sanderson, for example, was a naturalist and a collector who lead several collecting expeditions here and there for the British Museum. He also led field studies of disease vectors in the Caribbean and Central America areas. He also gathered field intelligence of possible German activity and sent reports about it back to Britain. He writes that he included reports of 2-3 foot diameter metallic or glowing spheres coming from or going into the water until he was ordered to stop reporting about the spheres.

Years later he wrote a book about underwater-based intelligences which he strongly felt very probably existed. He appeared to think they were not necessarily "extra-terrestrials" but better viewed as "parallel-terrestrials" or perhaps "parallel aquaticals". Here is a book he wrote about that.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22408.Invisible_Residents

He wrote another book more focused on the strictly aerial and "near space" aspect of this called "Unvited Visitors". All I can find is this poor-quality Amazon referrence to a copy they have.
https://www.amazon.com/Uninvited-Visitors-Biologist-Looks-UFOs/dp/B000HFPUQ2/ref=la_B001HMM8GO_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1520795554&sr=1-2

Fellow Traveler

Would look domestically first. Bezos sells $1B/yr in stock to pay for his space program and its' progress would seem sedate compared to SpaceX. If a covert nuclear propulsion or anti-proton production program was possible, I'd at least have a cover story.

Bill Gates has heavily invested in a couple of nuke projects (Terrapower), one involving small reactors.

How much money would it take: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_lightbulb

turcopolier

james

INTP as is my wife. pl

J

Colonel.

Dan Meyer OIG Executive Director of Intelligence Committee was escorted out of the building at the end of last year, and formally fired at the end of February this year in a power struggle going on within the OIG.

Dan Meyer, director of civilian reprisal investigations with the Office of the Inspector General's job was that of protecting whistleblowers in perilous territory — the Pentagon’s intelligence and counterintelligence communities, and the murky world of TS “black” programs.

Meyer and his team focused on helping federal employees in the intelligence and counterintelligence fields, especially those whose security clearances were alleged to have been revoked or changed due to their whistle-blowing. He also has handled cases of whistleblowers having their security clearance and access threatened for revealing procurement fraud. 


Last week Senators Grassley and Wyden fired off a March 6 letter asking DNI Dan Coats to preserve all related data regarding the Meyer dismissal.

Here's bio info on Meyer:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_P._Meyer

james

no wonder i drive you crazy!!!

Richardstevenhack

I hung out with Ivan Sanderson for a week after I got out of the Army back in the '70's. He was in western New Jersey IIRC on rural land where he used to have a small zoo, but abandoned that after it had been flooded out and burned out a couple times.

He formed the Society for the Investigation of the Unexplained (SITU), of which I was a member, in 1967. The archives of that group are apparently under the control of this fellow: https://thebiggeststudy.blogspot.com/2011/03/society-for-investigation-of.html

Sanderson's mostly known for his very deeply researched study on Bigfoot and other crypto-zoological entities.

Abominable Snowmen: Legend Come to Life: The Story Of Sub-Humans On Five Continents From The Early Ice Age Until Today
https://www.amazon.com/Abominable-Snowmen-Legend-Sub-Humans-Continents/dp/1931882584

It's worth reading because it shows that it's not just the Yeti in Tibet and Bigfoot in Oregon, it's literally everywhere and in every time.

Where the problem comes in is that John Keel also discovered that these subhuman species were frequently encountered in areas where there are a lot of UFO sightings. This complicates the issue by suggesting that Bigfoot and his cousins are as much fragments of some alternate reality as UFOs appear to be.

Jeannie Catherine

INFP here.

Richardstevenhack

The problem with the military investigating UFOs is that they have zero imagination. They tend to view the phenomenon as a series of discrete incidents and apply an either/or assumption that they are either real physical phenomena or don't exist at all. As John Keel demonstrated in his research, this gets you no where at all and hasn't since the military started investigations in the late 1940's.

One exception might be the Office of Naval Intelligence, which has been involved in UFO research in UFO research in the past under some interesting circumstances. Look up Morris K. Jessup and the Allende letters:

The Allende Letters And the VARO Edition of the Case For the UFO
https://www.amazon.com/Allende-Letters-VARO-Case-UFO/dp/1892062410

Here's a recap of that story:
https://web.archive.org/web/19980424203956/www.brotherblue.org/brethren/allende.htm

I had an interesting experience when I was stationed at Fort Rucker, Alabama, back in the late '60's. I had noticed the mysterious individual Carlos Allende had an address in one of the books. On a lark, I wrote that address and asked some pointed questions. The letter came back marked undeliverable at that address. So I forgot about it.

Some time later I get a letter allegedly from this Carlos Allende. I forwarded that to John Keel, who I was corresponding with at the time. The question was how whoever was posing as Allende know I had written him when the letter had been returned by the Post Office. Of course, it's possible that Allende actually did reside there and the Post Office had delivered it and he had opened and read it before returning it to the Post Office as "undeliverable" as part of his "schtick".

But it's an example of the sort of thing that occurs in UFO research that the military isn't actually comfortable in dealing with.

I also note that the CIA convened a scientific panel back in the 1950's chaired by Howard P. Robertson, a physicist, a CIA consultant, and the director of the Defense Department Weapons Evaluation Group. See the Wikipedia entry here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robertson_Panel

That basically went nowhere, as well.

Then there was the famous Condon Repot back in the '70's which was basically a debunking effort led by a physicist named Edward Condon. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condon_Committee

That went no where as well, although two members - David R. Saunders and R. Roger Harkins - issued a "dissenting report" entitled "UFO's? Yes! Where the Condon Committee Went Wrong", World Publishing, 1968, which is available on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Where-Condon-committee-wrong/dp/B00005X1J1

So official government investigations of the phenomena are and have been mired in problems due to damaging career concerns and lack of imagination in forming a comprehensive examination of the issue from first principles.

John Keel's approach was journalistic - investigate everything from scratch - and proved much more productive - although the results were even more baffling than whether UFOs were "alien spacecraft."

What's needed is an investigation that mixes scientific, law enforcement, and intelligence gathering methods with a deep knowledge of human psychology, brain science, and sociology. Population centers that have a high rate of UFO phenomena should be picked to investigate in toto like Keel used to do - literally go door-to-door asking people for their experiences, then compare them for similarities and with other locales.

Specific locations reported to be repetitively and frequently visited by UFOs should have persistent investigations, i.e., "watches" set up to detect and record the phenomena when it appears over time. UFO researchers know any number of areas in the US where UFOs can be seen virtually any time over a period of a week if one is willing to stay up all night looking. Why no one has spent that time recording events is beyond me, other than the inconvenience and some expense. Keel did it and he was by no means rich.

The Twisted Genius

Eric Newhill,

Glad to see you bringing up remote viewing and such. You made some very good points about psychic phenomena, UFOs and human nature. When I first delved into remote viewing, I approached it with some apprehension. SWMBO shared the same apprehensions. Even though I studied the phenomenon for quite some time before I tried it myself, it was a jump into the unknown. BTW, I proved to myself that it works. Perhaps these UFOs are some wild blend of technological and psychic magic. At least, it would be magic to us.

When I was still in grammar school, I read William Seabrook's "Jungle Ways." It was his account of his travels through French West Africa in 1930. He wrote of how he tried to make sense of the cannibals, shamans and seemingly topsy turvy social mores he came across. He came to the realization that the universe is full of things that can't be explained or understood. Wild things. Mysterious things. Even scary things. That concept excited me. I pity the SJ types who do not dare contemplate that something might exist outside their neatly preconceived world views. Their timidity is to so limiting. They prefer to mark their charts with warnings of "Here be dragons" rather than venture forth and look for those dragons.

I've taken the Meyers-Briggs test several times. I test out as borderline INFP-INFJ.

turcopolier

TTG
How about explaining Myers-Briggs to Fatima Macademia? Please. i haven't the patience. Not surprised you are an NF. the J part is probably just adaptation to the Army. I am an extreme INTP but very adapted to deal with SJs and A type personalities. pl

turcopolier

richardstevenhack

TTG and I have "zero imagination?" pl

turcopolier

Jeannie Catherine and james

NTs like me admire NFs. We can't be what you are and feel badly about it. pl

Fred

How many of our satelites are pointed up rather than down? Couldn't we open source evalution of much of what is being collected? Who else is putting things in space for data collection and just what are they looking for? BTW I tested as an INTJ. I've probably mellowed as I've aged though.

Mike C

I was trying to place what these reported objects behave like, and realized the nearest analog is the 3rd-person "God's eye" POV from a 3D video game or simulation. They seem to have little interaction with physics such as drag or gravity, accelerate instantaneously, hover, fly formation, etc. Imagine the camera in a simulation had a form, that's pretty much how it would act.

I'm not drawing any conclusions, just throwing it out there.

Adrestia

INTP here too, with a touch or learned NF because of OAI. Observe, Analyze, Imitate. It helps trying to 'feel' as the persons imitated do.

turcopolier

Adrestia

My NT wife asks why? Are we not the true Chosen? pl

catherine


Interesting to see what some personalities are here. I would have thought some of you were extroverts like me. I'am a ENTJ or was when I took the test years ago.. wonder if personalities change over time.

As for UFO, I saw one, so call me a kook. At least it looked unlike any aircraft in the 50's when I was a teenager. It appeared over the sound behind our beach house late afternoon, early evening when we all out on the boat dock. Hovering about a 100 feet above the water, silver sort of oblong disk...was there and then in a split second it wasn't...just gone. Every one out in the yard saw it, adults and us children. My cousins and I still mention it to each other now and then. The adults speculated it might be some
experimental aircraft but no one followed up on determining what exactly it was. I don't think they really thought it was a new experimental aircraft, I think they just preferred to ignore it and not ask questions at the closest AF base so as not to be thought nutty.

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