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22 February 2018

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Croesus

and also to Col. Lang @ 119:
Why, then, is only the (male) security guard called a coward? How about all the other adults -- male AND female -- in the school: why did none of them act courageously and tackle the gunman from behind, or throw a chair at him? Were they all cowards, too? Or were only the men cowards?

With respect, Col, & TTG & others, I think your eyes are fixed on Punch and Judy and their cowardly dance steps, and that they are distracting you from who is pulling the strings and why.

All of the numerous oddities, including the Transcript, about this case need to be scrutinized. Cruz is emerging as almost a sympathetic character -- he was certainly treated far more 'sympathetically' than other shooters who were dispatched w/ alacrity after having left their passports in situ. Cruz hated his "real mother" who was Jewish, but he's anti-Semitic; he wore a Trump hat; he talked about ISIS and Allah; his ??mother died a few months ago -- was that the Jewish mother that he didn't know? father's whereabouts??; living in a trailer park w/ a stranger who will give him investment advice? Where did all that money come from?

The case of Herschel Grynszpan comes to mind: Dorothy Thompson created so much sympathy for Grynszpan, to the extent of creating a fund for his legal defense, but nobody knows for sure what became of Grynszpan. He was somebody's tool, and so was/is Cruz-Makarov. We now know that Thompson was in the pay of those promoting war (Benjamin Ginsberg states this in "How the Jews Defeated Hitler,"); and once Thompson visited Palestine, became appalled at the oppression of Arabs and wrote about it, she became persona non grata. She was a managed tool, and so was Grynszpan. Was Cruz? It happened once, is it outside the realm of the possible that it happen again?

You're quite right, Col., my background is much closer to "PTA or League of Women Voters" than anything military or even strictly analytical (beyond the training of a CPA), but with respect, I think your military background and deep commitment to honor and courage have created a kind of logic-bind that has distracted you from a larger scheme that might be taking place.

turcopolier

croesus

"I think your military background and deep commitment to honor and courage have created a kind of logic-bind that has distracted you from a larger scheme that might be taking place." something larger than the dead kids? This madman was unhappy? do you hear yourself? pl

Babak Makkinejad

Yes, in some alternate universe in which the all-male crews that, in this universe, go out to fix downed power lines and extinguish fires, and dig ditches are accompanied by women who are equally capable as them.

The Twisted Genius

Croesus,

For the life of me, I can't figure out who you think is pulling strings about this school shooting. Haven't you read any of the accounts about some of the heroic actions of the coaches and teachers in the school. Heroes like Aaron Feis, Scott Beigel and Cris Hixon gave their lives protecting those kids. Many others who survived saw their duty and protected the kids to the best of their abilities. There's no conspiratorial strings there, just the best of humanity. We should all seek to emulate them with all the humility and honor we can muster, not dwell on your sordid little conspiracy theories.

As Colonel Lang said, you think our "military background and deep commitment to honor and courage" blinds us in some way? Nonsense. I revel in that blindness. This world would be a much better place if more were afflicted with such blindness.

Babak Makkinejad

It is not a nanny-state thingy, it is taking action in minimizing potential loss of the most useful thing to us human beings, viz. Another Human Being.

Account Deleted

OK duty/cowardice 101: A person not armed & employed specifically to tackle a shooter has no duty to & is not expected to do so. If they do they are a hero, but if they do not they are not a coward. Conversely, a person whose is armed & whose job it is to protect the children is expected to do so. They may well still be a hero if they do, that is a bonus. But if you don the uniform & draw the salary you shouldn't expect inaction to be excusable after 17 kids are killed - when fewer may have been if you had acted. A society which loses the ability to make judgments of this kind is not long for this world.

catherine

I have been thinking about the school shootings problem and maybe the solution is to hire, train and arm some mothers of children attending the school and have them do guard duty. Speaking for myself if I had a child in that school and heard gun shots I would have run in naked if I had to find my child or the shooter.

Eric Newhill

TTG,
I said several comments ago that I was going to drop this off-topic discussion and here I am continuing to comment. Now I feel like an ass, but I'm doing it anyhow.

I was making a very specific point; that it is not so very difficult to petition someone showing the behaviors and thinking that Cruz was, into involuntary commitment. Your example demonstrated that.

Yes, in your example there were no beds available and, per the law, if no beds available within a certain time period, the person in question must be released. That is a separate issue and I will repeat that it is not relevant to the Cruz situation. Cruz was not an acute decompensation. It was an chronic/ongoing illness. Surely there would have been a bed available at some point during the span of months leading up to the shooting. What we do know is that no one even attempted to petition him to court ordered treatment. That is a failure of the liberal Broward Co.

Babak, Steve and NancyK also deliberately miss the key point. Steve even admitted that he had participated in "hundreds" of court ordering processes. I believe that because lots of people are court ordered to treatment as I said they can be.

I'll say it again - no one tried to court order Cruz. Ok? Had they tried and there were no beds, then your example might be relevant.

The court ordering process exist like I said it does and it is effective. I've seen it in action countless times.

Croesus

It's your site, Col. Lang, but they're my words and you are twisting them. I did not write anything close to "the madman was unhappy." Were I to express an opinion on the psych status of the madman, I'd say it is contrived, even scripted: "he cut up small animals??" Doesn't much of that transcript, added to other reports of online messages, strike you as something a second-rate screenwriter would compile? It's almost as absurd as the Iranian plot to kill the Saudi poodle.
I believe there is a much larger "conspiracy" in place in Parkland, and that the madman was a well-chosen tool of the conspirators.

I believe the "conspirators" considered the "dead kids" an acceptable "price to pay," (h/t M. Albright). You know, and I am learning, that there are people in this world, and in this United States, who are that evil.

I don't know who these conspirators are or what their agenda is, but I think it's extremely important to expose the scheme and its perpetrators. The fact that so many people displayed cowardly and dishonorable, and even unnatural, behavior, is, to my way of thinking, a gigantic clue that should absorb more of our attention.

robt willmann

It would be useful to hear and see the unedited communications of and to the four sheriff's deputies / people with a law enforcement commission who were at the school and did not try to intervene in the incident, starting some reasonable time before it started to a long time after it had concluded. Of course, all of the communications of the law enforcement agencies involved should be scrutinized, along with the additional standard tangible evidence such as video from any cameras, audio, basic trauma forensics, blood spatter evidence, ballistics, chemical residue, and so forth. The mass media does not seem to be interested in such things, even though they are some of the closest things to objective facts as there can be.

Unfortunately, the game is narrative first, evidence and analysis second, if at all.

turcopolier

Croesus

When Cruz fired the first shot in the school he became nothing more than a menace to society and undeserving of sympathy. Your convoluted desire to find some sort of conspiracy in this incident is baffling. pl

Croesus

PS -- ah, I see: I wrote that Cruz was treated sympathetically. I state vehemently that Cruz deserves NO sympathy -- just as Grynszpan did not, but I believe itt to be the case that he is being treated with utmost sympathy -- as was Grynszpan: the media as well as police who ensured his safety when he was taken into custody; public defender Howard Finkelstein who said, "“This is an opportunity to put the criminal case behind and help the victims' families begin to try and pick up pieces of their lives for our community to heal . . .;" his attorney who wrapped an arm around him as she pleaded his "brokeness;" -- did the shooters in LasVegas or Paris enjoy such tender mercies? No they did not; they're dead. Why is Cruz being carried around on a velvet pillow, hmmm? Somebody wants him protected: Who, and Why?

turcopolier

Croesus

I suppose you are familiar with the concept of due process. It sounds like you think the police should have shot him when he was apprehended or that he should be lynched now. pl

Croesus

No, I'm afraid I have not read the accounts of those who died to protect the children.

And yes, I do think there are larger forces at work: the four guards who stood down raised that flag: Cruz pulled the trigger, but there were a lot of elements that worked to make it possible or easier for him to do so, and, more compellingly, who protected him and are protecting him now in the aftermath of his outrageous crimes.

Other shooters in similar events ended up dead, after leaving evidence of their identities and motivations in plain sight. Why is it that Cruz not only did not end up dead, but is enjoying protection?

I think that's an extremely important question.

Furthermore, the background on Cruz is so over-the-top that it borders on absurd. That should raise flags also. I think something stinks to high heaven about shooter Cruz and the people who made his killing spree possible, and I think "outrage at cowardice" is taking up too much emotional energy that would be better spent on finding out what larger forces are behind this twerp monster.

Croesus

Please tell me you don't live anywhere near my grandchildren. That's a nutso idea.

Croesus

Others have been shot rather than apprehended. This dude's being coddled, although, now that it's known he has wealth, he may lose the protective sympathy of his public defender.

The Twisted Genius

Croesus,

"Others have been shot rather than apprehended."

The Aurora, Colorado theater shooter and the Charleston, South Carolina church shooter were both captured alive and kept alive. The cops even bought the Charleston shooter a cheeseburger on the way to jail. How does your conspiracy theory take those two into account? Once a suspect is in state custody, the state's responsibility is to protect them and see that they face justice in court. It's that simple.

fanto

All:
a hypothetical question: what would all four armed guards do if the shooter happened to be a black male? Just thinking.

optimax

Coach Aaron Fies would have been a man to have had a gun. He would have had a chance and so would many of the kids if policy had allowed.
The SRO was issued a weapon and assigned to the school to protect the kids. He did not perform his sworn duty and chickened out.
Croesus, you think it conspiracy. That all four officers waiting outside as the Coral Police ran inside were ordered to not confront an active shooting. Even if that's true the right thing to do would be to enter the building and confront the shooter. You can't let policy, laws or authority of any kind keep you from doing the right thing. In that case they are still cowards.
If we guarded out schools the way we do our office buildings schools would be much safer. Only one entrance open in the morning where kids have identity cards they have to show to the guards. Cameras at all doors and hallways with a guard watching the monitors by the front door to buzz those permitted into the school.

optimax

Forgot a word: "Coach Aaron Fies would have been a (good) man to have a gun.

turcopolier

fanto

What difference would it make? None. pl

Account Deleted

QED

Account Deleted
This world would be a much better place if more were afflicted with such blindness.
Deep commitment to honor & courage is what makes men great & thus societies great & worth living in. The fact that the military is increasingly a last redoubt of this moral code is lamentable. If this is blindness then pluck out my eyes.

The day we start excusing behavior like this as acceptable - "but what about Peterson's feelings" type of snowflakery - we are doomed.

Croesus

and BarbaraAnn @ 137: Novelist Lisa Scottoline explored the implications of being a mother/volunteer charged with the safety of children, her own included, in Save Me.
Useful précis here: https://scottoline.com/book/save-me/

turcopolier

Barbara

Yup. Us lamentable deplorables are still here, somewhere. pl

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