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22 February 2018

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Eric Newhill

NancyK,
Your ability to consistently completely miss inconvenient truths is impressive. I'd almost have to conclude you're simply a dishonest person if I didn't know you better.

So you worked for a mental health system where no one was violent and where a guy with a diagnosis from way back is cutting himself, assaulting teenagers, playing with guns and knives, causing law enforcement to be at his home multiple times and stating that he wants to be a mass murderer and he wouldn't have been petitioned and then court ordered into treatment; against his will if need be? Well, regarding the latter, if you want to know what a big part of the problem is, look no further than the mirror. Where was this? California? Regarding the former, I don't believe you. Actually, I don't believe the latter either - or anything else you say.

Walrus

I asked my Policeman son for his opinion and he said no one knows what is going to happen to a man when the fight/flight/freeze instinct kicks in until it happens. He also confirmed that the training now is for whatever police are on hand, even if its only one, to immediately head for the source of the "stimulus" (the training word) whatever it is and put an end to it. The training is in phases and phase 3 is coming up which he has been warned will be "confronting".


As regards mental health etc. I once considered involuntary committal of a relative but was warned that such an action would irrevocably and permanently fracture whatever relationships existed and there was no guarantee that the situation wold improve for anyone.

I also know that the creation of such an easily used procedural option is going to result in false positives being locked up as well as inviting abuse by the State and personal enemies exactly as the SWAT response system has been.

My guess is that someone is about to propose Government level computerised AI surveillance of all behaviour (ie: Orwells 'big brother") to protect the children of course. On the surface it makes sense; gun ownership, non specific threats to kill on social media, mental health issues and tip offs. To the untutored mind, with perfect hindsight it was "obvious" Cruz was a threat, or was it? Public servants also have to live with a press corps who love writing "jackbooted police trampling personal liberty" stories.

Croesus

On the other hand, the behavior was surely anomalous: in my limited experience, when children are threatened, the greater impulse of adults, even those on the periphery, is to rush in and attempt to take some protective action.
Thus, it might be in line to ask whether Peterson's behavior was "a feature or a bug."

Ya ya ya, conspiracy theory on the loose: but am I the only one who finds it intriguing that the media and various organizations were able to frame the situation on their terms and organize responses, within mere hours of the event.

In my skeptic's view, there's almost an obligation for citizens to ask penetrating questions, even at the risk of being called a "conspiracy theorist."

turcopolier

walrus

I wrote up-thread that it is true in the military as well as the police that you don't know how someone will act under fire until you see the actual conduct. The difference in the military is that you get to see that response over and over again in sustained combat. pl

The Twisted Genius

Croesus,

It doesn't take any kind of conspiracy to call this guy, now four guys, out as cowards within seconds of hearing about it. It's a visceral and immediate reaction. For many of us, to beat the living shit out of those cowards would have been a visceral and immediate reaction if we were there. This Peterson was at that school since 2009. He knew the students and still did nothing. Sure penetrating questions have to be asked especially now that we know this was four rather than one coward.

Fred

NancyK

Sure thing. New Zealand and Norway have population of roughly 5 million and guess the diversity stats of the population. Should we eliminate immigration for a few generations to change our demographics to match? Of course that's not what you want to compare, is it? How about comparing constitutional rights, like the ones enacted by "We, the Japanese people..." while Douglas MacArthur and the army of occupation looked on. If you want to compare countries then do so, I would be happy to know what you want to compare.

Croesus

Somehow, the gods put the right books in my hands just when they are appropriate: I'd just finished reading Lord of the Flies when the Parkland event happened. Golding introduces and closes the narrative by explaining to the reader why he treats of Boys and not Girls: "Because I was a boy, am a man, have brothers and sons, but I've never been a girl or a sister or a mother, and women behave much better then men . . ."

So I assess your instant judgment, "this man/these men were cowards," plain and simple, with the follow-up impulse to beat the crap out of him/them, to be a more typically male, and warrior, reaction than the reaction of a female: your honor as a warrior and a male/defender is deeply offended; my skeptic's brain is demanding: What was really going on here? The real plot has been obfuscated and obviously so, and a political agenda snapped into place like clockwork.

The fact that not one but FOUR men did nothing even more powerfully suggests to me that something else was going on, not just cowardice. There was some other plot or scheme -- or grand miscommunication -- taking place; there had to be: One man, a coward, but all four?

In Lord of the Flies, even peace-loving, rules-abiding Ralph's instincts propelled him to confront Jack the Savage/hunter in order to recover Piggy's glasses. Jack would have plunged in eagerly, but even the law-and-order character would also have acted on natural instinct to rescue the weak or young,

FOUR men did nothing.

WHY?

It had to have been a scheme, maybe even a conspiracy -- maybe the shooter was supposed to have been shooting blanks -- "as we did with Count Palmieri."
Further, didn't you think it weird that the shooter was taken, alive; did not show so much as a scratch; was carefully guarded by more than four police officers to protect him???

Something's hinky about the whole setup.

LJ

There was more than one deputy.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/parkland/florida-school-shooting/fl-florida-school-shooting-response-fail-20180223-story.html

Tel

Just in case anyone is in doubt about the nature of the problem here.

http://static01.nyt.com/newsgraphics/2018/02/23/fbi-transcripts/assets/fbi-transcript.pdf

Only 7 pages, but gives excellent background.

turcopolier

tel

that transcript makes the FBI's failure in the Cruz case very clear. pl

Eric Newhill

TTG,
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/02/24/caller-fbi-tip-line-operator-nikolas-cruz-going-explode/

The content of a second call to the FBI has been released. Cruz was chopping up birds and frogs on the kitchen counter. He was throwing chairs at students and teachers, according to the caller. The caller believed that Cruz was going to "explode" and become a school shooter.

One has to wonder why the caller contacted the FBI instead of the local police. Had they tried the local police (Israel's office?) and been ignored?

Back to the deputy at the school. Cruz wasn't allowed on campus with a backpack. Who was enforcing that? The deputy's responsibility? That deputy, assigned to the school, should have made a point of checking out Cruz every time he entered the school. The guy is not only a coward, he is incompetent.

Throwing chairs at teachers and students? Bringing knives to school? Constant interventions by police at the home...and the man is still allowed to mix with students at school? I guess someone like NancyK runs the school system. Yep, carving up animals, cutting himself, attacking students and teachers, making statements about mass murder...couldn't possibly be court ordered to treatment. Never happens. Nope.

turcopolier

james

That's true. The border between the US and Canada is about as artificial as it gets. pl

turcopolier

croesus

Your reaction to crisis is more suitable to a PTA or League of Women Voters meeting than a real life or death event. I do not have "reactions" to things like this. I make judgments as I always did in combat. My judgment on these men has to do with their not being decent human beings who felt they had to try to save these children. Your drivel at the end about some sort of conspiracy is a desperate attempt to justify weakness. pl

The Twisted Genius

Eric Newhill,

The story of Virginia state senator Creigh Deeds and his son, Gus, brought the state of court ordered mental health treatment in Virginia a few years ago. Gus was hospitalized twice and was diagnosed as "somewhat bipolar" after he was 18 and treated with medication. In 2013 he stopped taking his medication and his father sought to have him involuntarily hospitalized. In this case "a magistrate couldn’t issue a temporary detention order to someone experiencing a mental health crisis unless a bed in a facility was located. Gus Deeds was released after authorities said they couldn't find a bed for him within the six hours allotted by law." After his release Gus attacked his father with a knife, severely wounding him. He then shot himself. After this incident, Deeds set out to fix the way Virginia dealt with mental health in our legislature and we are better for his efforts.

We already know there were policies in Broward County that sought to reduce the criminalization of aberrant student behavior. I don't know what the policies about involuntary commitment for mental health issues are like in Florida. In my opinion, all those policies need to be examined at the local and state level. I'm leery of trying to solve this on a national level, but maybe there is something that could be done there.

Eric Newhill

TTG,
Well there you have it. The system working exactly as I said it does.

The only caveat in the case you reference is that an open bed couldn't be located. That is a lack of resources at a point in time - the psyche hospitals were full up. That's a different issue. All parties involved were ready to commit Gus Deeds.

I don't believe anyone could say that the lack of a bed impacted the Broward Co situation. Furthermore, as you note, Cruz could have been arrested on several counts, but was not due to liberal policies.

NancyK

I never said no one was violent, re-read what I wrote. I was involved in many take downs. Whether you believe me or not is meaningless, as I am speaking the truth. Of course there were cutters, usually women, often sexually abused. A person can be put on 72 hour hold, danger to self, others or gravely disabled. If they agree to take their meds they are relived before or during a 14 day old.

Account Deleted

Croesus

TTG is an (ex) warrior and AFAIK a man, but neither of these attributes are necessary to recognize blatant cowardice when you see it.

Yes, it appears 4 men did nothing. So when it comes to the protection of our children, perhaps we ought to try a group whose instincts in this specialist area may be harder to train out.

NancyK

Eric, you are very rude. I am fine with sticking boys who torture animals, are abusive towards women and own and threaten others with guns and knives, in prison or a psych hospital indefinitely. I was explaining how things are not how they should be.

turcopolier

Barabara

Once a professional soldier, always a professional soldier. BTW the remark was mine, not TTG's. I know quite a few women who would have shot Cruz dead. pl

Babak Makkinejad

You put your finger on the crux of the matter - when things go South, women expect men to get out there, brave the danger, and do what is needed. Woe unto man who is held responsible for failing to protect children...

Babak Makkinejad

So, we come to agreement, that this system of yours works for very rich areas of US.
The fact of the matter is that there are not enough psychiatrists, no money in that. At one time, there was pressure on NPs to perscribe psychtropic drugs over the phone. The nurses refused.

Jane

There is now something of a time line available. http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/parkland/florida-school-shooting/sfl-florida-school-shooting-timeline-20180223-htmlstory.html

What I, as a civilian, would like to know is how someone trained in urban warfare would have approached this situation starting from the position of the deputy with the aim of averting further casualties.

Further questions I have - many of which are factual and may be answered later -- are:

1) IIRC correctly I elsewhere saw a report that the deputy ran to the building after the first round of shots. Wouldn't he have been in a safer position if he plastered himself to the side of the building -- going by the Westerns I have seen?

2) What triggered the Code Red which locked down the fire doors and required students and staff to stay in their rooms and how long did it last before it was overridden by the fire alarm set off by somebody? This is believed to be a deliberate action on the part of the shooter.

3) Who first called in the 911 and when?

4) What is the story with the other 2-3 Deputies who came later and also did not go in?

turcopolier

jane

"how someone trained in urban warfare would have approached this situation starting from the position of the deputy with the aim of averting further casualties" You go in a door and shoot him when you find him. Might you die? Yes. pl

The Twisted Genius

Eric Newhill,

"Well there you have it. The system working exactly as I said it does."

Except in this situation involving the son of a sitting Virginia state senator, the system failed. If there was no bed for a senators's son, there certainly was no bed available for any other Virginian in need. The only good that came out of this was that Deeds was in a position to push the necessary legislative and budgetary changes to improve the system. There are now more beds and medical personnel in place to serve the community. Sometimes a nanny state is what is needed.

Account Deleted

That wasn't actually my point Babak. As pl said, there are many women who would have been more than happy to do what was needed when things went South here. Men are doubtless better suited to combat of the kind involved in warfare, but as pl pointed out in #109 this job is very different - it requires (at worst) a one-off instinctive reaction. My point was that appropriately trained women may be just as well suited to it.

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