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25 January 2018

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LeaNder

I suppose LeaNder's reference was to the Khazar conversion

Not me, let's get this right, Pat. ;) Mind you I haven't read the book. You feel I should?

I surely can understand its legitimization as challenge from an inner Israeli debate perspective, if it wasn't about high publication numbers only, but does it serve to deal with all traces in European history? Does it help us to understand? I ask as Zionist troll? Remember?

#Rsh15"Israel" is nothing but six million fake Jews and a few fake Jew billionaires in the US. I use the term "fake Jews" because most of them have nothing Semitic in their background being Europeans who converted on orders of some king centuries ago. The real Semites are the Palestinians who converted to Islam centuries ago on orders of some king. So the descendants of the real Jews are being persecuted by fake Jews.

LeaNder

ooops, I might have just stepped into a trap.

Richardstevenhack

I'm referring to the standard theory that most Ashkenazi Jews are descended from the Khazar Empire. Ashkenazis comprise 8 million or so of the 13 million Jews worldwide.

However, that theory is under assault from genetic analyses of DNA. The most recent conclusions is that Ashkenazi Jews descended from a core of Jewish males who emigrated to Europe and then intermarried with European women who converted to Judaism. So the male side appears descended from Middle Eastern Jews while the female side is descended from Europeans.

The telling DNA, however, is that Palestinian DNA appears to be similar to the descendants of the European Jews, indicating as I said that Palestinians are indeed as much "Jewish" as these European Jews.

In any event, just because European Jews may have some genetic link to ancient Israel Jews clearly does not support the idea that they have some current right to occupy Palestinian lands.

kooshy

https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=579884628
this is what was on npr on 1/23/18

Richardstevenhack

Check this article out. Apparently it's pretty well decided that Palestinians and Jews are very close to being identical.

The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinian
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/epiphenom/2009/01/shared-genetic-heritage-of-jews-and.html#LCSEmK8FT4Al89Vb.99

It's apparently not certain that Palestinians are descended from Jews who converted to Islam, as forced Islamic conversions of non-Islamic populations were rare, although they did occur at various times and places. But the genetic evidence clearly shows similarity, so that pretty much answers the question.

It remains true that European Jews who rule Israel today are persecuting Palestinians who have as much or more "right" to the country than they do.

Matthew

TV: Everything I know about Judaism I learned at Deir Yassin.

Matthew

Col: Yes.

turcopolier

james

The economic benefits of his program are quite obvious in spite of the nonsense from Schumer, Pelosi and the other rich Democrats. pl

sid_finster

Educate me, please.

guidoamm

The hundreds of millions of Dollars spent on the Palestinians by the US and Europe have made little difference if not alleviate living conditions for some of the poorest Palestinians. Ghazza however is still a concentration camp despite apparent Western sympathy and munificence.

Palestinians are a corrupt, venal, horribly tetchy and divided people. Palestinians are the first not to like Palestinians and the various factions will trip each other up with great glee at any given opportunity.

Some of the greatest financial fortunes in the world are concentrated in the hands of Arabs most of them adherents of the Muslim faith. If any of them really gave a hoot about Palestine, they could easily make up the shortfall in contributions to the Palestinian cause precipitated by US$ policy.

In the past 60 years, for whatever reason, both the US and Europe have clearly come down on the side of Israel. This is a sovereign prerogative.

In the entirety of human history, never, not one single time, has independence and self determination ever been given to anyone by a third party.

This move will force some sort of departure and it puts paid to the notion that the West gives a flying bat's @ss about the Palestinians or their cause.

(married to a Palestinian)

kao_hsien_chih

"Other than when the Mongol's came through, most of the local's just converted to either the religion of the Conquers, or the "new" religion of the Oppressed"

Then the big mistake Israel has made was that it did not convert Palestinians in occupied territories to "Secular Jews," i.e give them Israeli citizenship with full and equal right? The state of Israel = modern day Mongol horde, at least as far as that little corner of ME is concerned?

Harry

I suspected as much but advances in dna analysis have made it clear that there is a suvstantial ME component to Ashkenazis. Some western european dna mixed in as well but definitely a semitic component.

turcopolier

KHC

The Palestinians do not want to be "secular Jews" even if the Israeli Jews would accept them as that. This brings to mind the plight of my French Canadian ancestors after France gave them to the Brits after the Seven Years War. B. Franklin told the British government of the time that they should not worry because in fifty years the Canadians would be English speaking Protestants. Quebec's motto is "Je me souviens." (I remember) pl

Walrus

I am deeply disturbed by Trumps use of the words "My honor" if in fact he said them.

"Honor" got us some of the worst wars and battles including the Franco Prussian war, WWI, WWII and Vietnam.

 dogear

So babak how are things coming along in iran.will we see the mullahs swinging from lamposts.is there a possibility pistachio nut supplies to israel will cease.could this lead to regime change in iran.monocultural hyper nationalist countries like israel and vietnam understand that a people have to do whatever it takes to survive.however a line has to be drawn in the sand when it comes to nuts.whether it be pistachio or your enemies

English Outsider


I can't believe I'm reading some of the comments on this thread.

1. What on earth does it matter who's got what DNA? If it could be proved past doubt that all Jews were descended from Jews who lived in Israel an age ago, would that mean the Palestinians must be dispossessed?

If it could be proved that there was a great Jewish Kingdom in Biblical times would that mean that the Palestinians must be dispossessed?

The answer to both questions is no. Therefore to argue such points is to give the argument away, not to win it.

If I may refer to our host in this context, the Colonel's bleak and accurate description of the situation is all that is needed. Therefore all ethnic and historical debate is redundant.

LeaNder - I respect your desire to get things right, but you are you not also entering into an argument that has no true bearing on the Palestinian tragedy?

2. Those of us who are foreigners and who are permitted to comment on this site never make the mistake of blaming ALL Americans for the disastrous course American foreign policy has taken in this respect. Nor am I as an Englishman responsible for the disastrous course the foreign policy of my own country has taken. It is surely incorrect to blame ALL Israelis for what their government is doing. And plain foolish to blame all Jews.

What is happening and has happened in Israel is not, pace Babak, the result of some inevitable civilisational conflict in which we are all involved. It is the result of grubby manoeuvrings by out of control elites. Of course there are fanatics and cranks in all countries, but from what I know of the matter personally the normal average Israeli is no more responsible for the suffering of the Palestinians than I am.

3. Not responsible, but as we will not the average Israeli will bear the consequences. There is no long term future for Israel as it exists now and possibly not for Israel at all. The question surely is, how to ensure the least amount of deaths, on both sides, while that is being played out.

jsn

So, the Donald has now stumbled into your area of expertise. He arrived in mine, accompanied by Marla Maples in a loose white knit top with black bra (prominently visible through the sweater) and mini skirt in 1988, the pair doubled the amperage of our staid architectural practice for several afternoons. And then made such a mockery of our practice, which in vanity we still presumed an "art", that we declined the commission for the eight or nine towers now built between 60th and 68 in Manhattan on the West Side Highway, all with giant TRUMP logos, without our aid but to our master plan.

I'm likely wrong but my advice is don't despair: the process is likely to feel like a disaster to everyone but him, but, if we all survive, wait and judge the result when he's fired who he will fire, dodged and weaved through the thicket of his own ambiguous and self contradictory pronouncements and made the totally path dependent decisions he will make in the dynamic of crisis to once again define himself a winner. His genius is ego and opportunism, his peculiarity is a real patriotism that from my perspective as not the worst leftist is likely to be his saving grace.

Procopius

So, you're saying the Israelis caught him in a honey trap? Because I sure don't see his actions as being in Russia's interest. I wouldn't even be surprised if KSA caught him, although they more likely are just using money.

Annem

A member of the AFD leadership recently converted to Islam! for real.

Babak Makkinejad

This thread indicates the breakdown of the Discourse of Enlightenment Tradition and we are back to Racialism and Religion. Who is responsible? Everyone and no one.

Babak Makkinejad

To answer your question: "Never".

Iran is a multi-ethnic polity of religious people that are glued together by the Shia Islam. When Shia Azeri Turks created Modern Iran, they also deliberately revived the appellation of "Iran" and connected their kingdom to those of pre-Islamic Iran.

Since then, during a long process of historical pain and suffering, Iranian people have given the Shia Doctors or Religious Sciences of Islam the right and duty to define Islam and what it means to be a Muslim - as opposed to Sunni Muslims who lack such a centralized authority.

The mullahs have been active in Iranian politics for over 150 years, from the Tobacco Movement to the Constitutional Revolution, to the regime change from the Qajars to Pahlavis, to Oil Nationalization and finally to Islamic Revolution. Expecting them to disappear from the scene is not even childish; it is like detesting the color "blue" of the Sky and pining for Magenta or some other color.

Ignorant Iranians and Foreigners with their own anti-Iranian agenda never seem to be able to grasp or otherwise acknowledge such salient facts of the Iranian culture and history. One of those facts is that Regime Change in Iran can only happen if the Doctors of Religion in Iran agree to it. That is not in the cards at this historical juncture; in my opinion.

In my opinion, strategic settlement with Iran is still the best option for both the Western Fortress and for Iran and allied powers rather than day dreaming about regime change in Iran which would usher in a democratic secular republic in Iran.

Babak Makkinejad

I think "secular Jew" is not apt, "non-Observant Jew" is probably more accurate.

In an analogous manner, in Iran, on would use the word "متدین" for the observant Muslims.

This has been the bane of Islamic Republic of Iran - the desire to make every one "متدین" - even through oppressive practices - while significant numbers are non-observant Muslims and deeply resent this intrusion of state into what they consider to be private spheres of individual choice.

The resentment among so many is so strong that they have become militantly anti-religious and anti-Islamic. They seek refuge in their dream space of Ancient Iran; regardless of the historical facts pertaining to that period.

For non-observant Jews, I should think, there is not even that possibility, if Rabbinate eventually takes over the rest of the State in Israel, there is no place for the non-observant.

"Come to the Revolution and we will make you like Strawberry with Cream"

Babak Makkinejad

Iran, Pakistan, Turkey, Algeria, the Gulfies can collectively enforce a naval blockade of Israel or break through it - they have enough naval assets to do so.

Muslims states have not done much since 1973.

turcopolier

jsn

Which of my areas of expertise are you writing of? pl

turcopolier

Babak

IMO you are exaggerating the level of centralization of Islamic religious authority in 12er Shia Islam. The mujtahids must seek consensus (ijma') in the Hawza in order to achieve a significant result. The structure is certainly looser in Sunni Islam but ijma' is still necessary within sects of the Sunni. pl

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