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27 January 2018

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Thomas TE

@50 Babak, "But in Spain and in France, tribes had become extinct a millenia earlier." - Any further information how this came about? Thanks

Babak Makkinejad

I do not know - Germanic tribes that invaded and settled the lands of the former Roman Empire did not retain their tribal cohesion: not in Italy, not in North Africa, not in Gaul and not in Spain. I do not know why.,

charly

I understand tribe in the context of an Amazonian tribe but i have problems understanding the concept of tribe in the context of a million strong Iraqi tribe. Without understanding the concept i simply can't say if there is tribalism in Western Europe. Maybe there is an we just don't have words for it.


@Barak, Those Germanic tribes were not really tribes but more hords with a much smaller tribal core. A group would start to move and on the way it would pick up lots of other groups and individuals who often spoke different languages etc.
When they settled it was also not that they were the only people there. It was more of a new boss then a new people.
There is also the problem of the early middle ages with it very low number of written sources and being conquered by the Church (Gaul) and Islam (Spain, North Africa). But what we do know is that they spoke Germanic in Paris in 800 so that unsuccesful where those Germanic tribes not.
Also all those areas have been settled at least twice (Spain) or more (rest) since then. It was also a very long time ago. Are there still tribes in Iran from 1500 years ago?

turcopolier

Charly

Ever heard of Scottish Clans? Those are tribes. We are not really responsible for your lack of knowledge of social anthropology. "Tribes also privilege primordial social ties, are clearly bounded, homogeneous, parochial, and stable. Tribes are an organization among families (including clans and lineages), which generates a social and ideological basis for solidarity that is in some way more limited than that of an "ethnic group" or of a "nation"." wiki on "tribe" pl

turcopolier

Charly

Ever heard of Scottish Clans? Those are tribes. "Tribes also privilege primordial social ties, are clearly bounded, homogeneous, parochial, and stable. Tribes are an organization among families (including clans and lineages), which generates a social and ideological basis for solidarity that is in some way more limited than that of an "ethnic group" or of a "nation"." wiki on "tribe" In Arab societies there is a very clear hierarchy of loyalty; family, clan, tribe and confederation of tribes. These ties persist long into sedentarization and are often the source of widespread nepotism. Have you never noticed how many immigrants from the 3rd world that you meet are related? pl

Babak Makkinejad

"Babak" is the correct name.

You are quibbling - the Lombards were an honest-to-goodness tribe and gave their name to the region called Lombardi. But nothing of their tribal structures have remained - to my knowledge.

In Hungary, the Huns are no longer tribal - as far as I know.

Harper

I am sure that the capitulation of Jordan's King Abdullah II to this rubbish proposal is tied to the so-called "Shia Corridor" scare that Iran is the big winner and will use a docile Assad-led Syria to form a corridor from Iran through Iraq, Syria and Lebanon to the Mediterranean coast. This fear has been stoked by the Pentagon, the British and anyone else who is prone to hyper fears about Iran taking over the region from our dear friendly empire friends in Riyad and Ankara.

I continuously reflect back on the fact that Col. Lang was 100 percent correct in saying that the war in Syria could be won militarily by the R+6 forces from the moment in late September 2015 that the Russians stepped in with both air support and a full restructuring of the Syrian Armed Forces. Now it appears that the losers in that fight somehow feel they are empowered to set the terms of surrender--of the Syrians. What imperial arrogance!

charly

Sorry for misspelling your name.

Italy was conquered a few times since then with new societal layers but on top of it so it is not surprising that the Lombard tribal structures are not clear anymore but that doesn't mean that they have been gone for a thousand years

Babak Makkinejad

You best then get yourself a book on late antiquity developments and study it.

Kooshy

Babak was a freedom fighter, and leader of first organized revolut against Arab conquers of Iran.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babak_Khorramdin

different clue

charly,

(reply to comment 54),

I am not sure of this, and Babak Makkinejad and/or Kooshy can certainly correct me if I am wrong, but off the top of my head I remember the names of 3 currently existing tribes in Iran: Bakhtiari, Kashqai, Kashquli. Maybe the Arab-ancestry people in Khuzestan are still members of tribes.

kooshy

If I remember correctly, Kashkulies are a branch of Qashqaies which are dominant in southern Fars province, and Bakhtiaries are Lur tribes living further north on Zagros mountains they both still exist. They have modernized, and move with pickup trucks instead of on foot and horse and mule. Both very colorful tribes and warriors specially the Bakhtiaries. Tribal system in Iran started to decline after the constitutional revolution, and specially when central government became strong and was able to provide security in rural areas during Reza shah when Gendarmerie was formed although still exist, but they rely on central government for education, security and subsides.

Olga

I don't know if mad... This could be an honour for Jordan, but also an obligation. One way for Iranians to give J. something, while also extracting a price. Just a thought...

William Fitzgerald

Kooshy,

The process you describe in your last sentence concerning de-tribalization in Iran is, in general terms, what occurred in France under the Bourbons and England under the Plantagenets and Tudors. I think we can agree that the process took generations and that it was usually not apparent (as a process) to those who were alive while it was happening. The vestiges of tribalism and feudalism are still with us, as with Col. Lang's beloved Scottish clans; but centralized governance prevails. It does not prevail in Afghanistan and may never, but Iran does seem to be on that path.

WPFIII


turcopolier

William Fitzgerald

Tribal identity is a potent force. To think otherwise is to deceive oneself. This discussion reminds me of people before 1979 who claimed that Islam was a wasting force. They don't say that much anymore. The devotees of modernism just can't face the fact that a rave New World of unified cultural globalism is a long way off. BTW Scottish highland clans have not amount to anything since the Enclosures drove crofters off the land. pl

Kooshy

Yes I agree, by now in Iran for most part the security and Judicial powers of migrating tribe’ khan have for more most parts gone, and no longer necessary. But culturally, their traditions have been tried to be preserved. The tribes main integrity problem is that their youth have no choice but to go to cities for work. IMO thier traditional way of living and economy can no longer suport increase in thier population, so thier is not much future for younger generation unless they move out. The same is true with small farming villages. Average living age in Iran has increased by over 20 years to over 76 ever since the revolution and universal medical insurance even in small villages.

J

It appears that Gen. Votel violated a direct order from the President, and should be immediately relieved of his command at CENTCOM.

Roberto

Hello: I ask you: who or what is SAG? My email: verttuti@gmail.com

Babak Makkinejad

Syrian Arab Government.

It could also mean "dog" in Persian.

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