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23 January 2018

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Fred

LeaNder,

I'm sure your cognitive abilites are not impacted by the disruption of reading, considering and responding to this volume of text messages. "I assume he does work neither on Saturday, Sunday or on Holidays." What's the working schedule for intellegence professionals hostile to the USA? Do they only work 9-5 or do they have the French 36 hour work week with extended holidays?

J

Bottom line -- is anybody going to jail? The FBI thinks they are above the law, at least that's the way they behave, and have behaved in the past on far too many occasions. Will Sessions and Trump make the FBI crooks do a frog-march straight to lock-up?


This is just one more reason IMO why the FBI needs to be dismantled, as our nation doesn't need a national 'political' policia.

If criminal investigations spanning state lines are required, then let there be departmental cooperation between the various state law enforcement agencies. State law enforcement working togeather accomplish more than most federal agencies sticking their fingers in the pie.

Let's do away with the FBI, it serves no useful purpose.

DC

Honorable Colonel, the cause(s) for concern is/are writ large in the media, for well over a year. Problem is, which media do you trust. The nation is as divided as I've ever seen it, concerning this question. I continue to believe that truth exists, and truth is not an existential question; but for many of our fellows this concern seems lost. With respect to what Mueller is doing, I imagine a short list of issues include money laundering, financial fraud, tax evasion, international and domestic deals with "the mob," campaign finance violations, and of course "collusion" with a foreign power to undermine the election, and obstruction of justice vis a vis the Comey firing. It will be interesting to read "the facts" with respect to the criminal charges, if or when Mueller is able to put the relevant facts on the table.

Sid Finster

DC: let's say that were true. So is your position that due process is de facto optional, as as law enforcement itself decides that the matter is important?

More importantly, once you give the unelected and unaccountable (even Congress doesn't know what their real budgets are) Deep State a veto over election results they don't like, you are no longer living in a Republic, but in something else.

But why worry? Surely history shows that the Praetorian Guard ever always only acted selflessly and in the best and highest interests of Rome and its citizens, right?

Right?

Sid Finster

https://nypost.com/2018/01/23/evidence-suggests-a-massive-scandal-is-brewing-at-the-fbi/

"...each day brings credible reports suggesting there is a massive scandal involving the top ranks of America’s premier law enforcement agency. The reports, which feature talk among agents of a “secret society” and suddenly missing text messages, point to the existence both of a cabal dedicated to defeating Donald Trump in 2016 and of a plan to let Hillary Clinton skate free in the classified email probe.

If either one is true — and I believe both probably are — it would mean FBI leaders betrayed the nation by abusing their powers in a bid to pick the president.

More support for this view involves the FBI’s use of the Russian dossier on Trump that was paid for by the Clinton campaign and the Democratic National Committee. It is almost certain that the FBI used the dossier to get FISA court warrants to spy on Trump associates, meaning it used the opposition research of the party in power to convince a court to let it spy on the candidate of the other party — likely without telling the court of the dossier’s political link.

Even worse, there is growing reason to believe someone in President Barack Obama’s administration turned over classified information about Trump to the Clinton campaign."

Personally, I question the last paragraph. I suspect that it was either other members of Team R And/or the Clinton campaign that provided the dossier to the FBI.

Sid Finster

IIRC, the Heaven's Gate cult committed suicide, but only after the beaming up did not proceed as originally scheduled.

The Jim Jones mass suicide provides another instructive example.

Sid Finster

Because the point of Benghazi appears to have been the CIA gathering arms to ship off to the Moderate Jihadi Headchopper Unicorn Army v.20 or somesuch, I don't think Gowdy or other Congressional Republicans would be allowed to get to the bottom of things, even if they tries.

Mark Gaughan

What will happen if Mueller finds that President Trump colluded with the Russians and/or obstructed justice, and the HPSCI finds the FBI, DOJ, etc. guilty of crimes?

Sid Finster

This is fascinating.

You already know without evidence that the Page - Sztrok missing text messages are a nothingburger, just "lawyers in love" (yuck!) but you also know without evidence that Trump must be guilty.

This is like legal procedure as invented by the Queen of Hearts in Alice in Wonderland. Sentence, then verdict, then trial.

turcopolier

DC

" ... money laundering, financial fraud, tax evasion, international and domestic deals with "the mob," campaign finance violations, and of course "collusion" with a foreign power to undermine the election, and obstruction of justice vis a vis the Comey firing. It will be interesting to read "the facts" with respect to the criminal charges" How much of that menu of the MSM and Democratic party meme portfolio constitute "high crimes and misdemeanors" and/or could be used in an impeachment and trial? pl

Publius Tacitus

Mark,
Are you being serious? There is no such CRIME as COLLUSION. What the hell does that even mean? Did Trump take money from the Russian Government to fund his campaign? NO. Did Trump seek out Russian input to his campaign? NO. The entire meme painting Trump as a stooge of Putin was nothing more than a sophisticated information operation that had the help of the FBI and the CIA in trying to smear Trump.

DC

Indeed, Sir, "what could be used?" On this point, I suspect we're going to have to read up on the "fruit of the poisonous tree" doctrine (assuming that Mueller is not removed, which would have its own problems):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_poisonous_tree

Pay particular attention to "exception no. 2." In order to prove that any evidence is "poison," then somehow NSA methods may have to be disclosed. In private, hermetically sealed, court session? Can we expect the public to be comfortable with that? What a mess.

Mark Gaughan

Thanks PT.

Sid Finster

Mark produces a classic argument from ignorance, a favorite pastime of russiagate partisans.

"Just because no evidence has been found that Mark is in fact Mickey Mouse doesn't mean that evidence won't be someday found - in fact, this just means that we need to look harder! Until conclusive proof is found, we can safely assume that Mark has big round ears and a tail...."

LeaNder

Yes, Fred, "intelligence professionals hostile to the USA". The Swamp. Got that. Completely non-MAGA. I give you that.

I'll move towards you one step. Both of course texted and sent emails inside their wider swamp-networks, potentially "perhaps 50,000" times, all in all. In the important highly heated eventful post election day early Trump days. No less.

Some of those mails may prove that Russiagate is really Hillarygate AND also deeply linked to Obamagate: HillaryObamaGate. Meaning: they didn't need to spent all their energy on their love-affair 'cum' Trump-hate, but had to keep the wider network informed too? Save evidence: There were traces to this effect.

Sorry, but this is a déjà vu dive back into a close-up US partisan popular culture clash experience, I prefer to not be reminded of. Meaning: I do feel the need to keep it at arms-length. And maybe that's why I gladly took your offer to look at cold numbers. At the time, I surely prayed for some type of cold type of helpful, clarifying, technical SIGINT, admittedly. ... Felt like the only way out.

But thanks for offering the helping hand. ;)

*********
Somehow I seem to prefer to look into Cyber-rules and debates as mirrored here. What rules was the "conspiracy parties" guided by at the time? Feeling the need to put matters into context.

http://publications.armywarcollege.edu/sitesearch.cfm?q=Cyber

Monk

RE: 50000 text messages.
Can anyone shed some light on how this number has been reached? I ask as text messages are 160 characters in length and messages longer than this, while shown as a single message on the handset, will still be broken down into these 160 character messages.

robt willmann

Rhondda,

Title 18 U.S. Code, section 2384, is a nice, vague criminal law from the standpoint of the government or a prosecutor, and includes that broadest doctrine of all -- conspiracy -- but the problem with trying to use it against those who have been seeking to push down Gen. Michael Flynn, Trump, et. al., is that each of the five alternative elements requires either "by force" or "to levy war"--

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2384

The devious villains who have been running this attempt to remove Trump and to neutralize the complaints of the "deplorables" are using the existing legal and media structure to try to do it. In fact, one of the elements of 18 U.S. Code 2384 is that the conspiracy to do one of the five alternative elements has to be done "contrary to the authority thereof [of the U.S. government]". When the backstabbing Deputy Attorney General, Rod Rosenstein, wrote the directive establishing the "special counsel" Robert Mueller, he created a sub-office that has the authority of the U.S. government.

Pretty slick.

Flavius

Two points: my nose tells me that there is at least a 50/50 chance that that there were communications between Mueller, Rosenstein and Comey relating to Mueller's appointment before Comey leaked the triggering material to the NYT by washing it through his friend, the law professor at Columbia; point 2 - there is almost no chance whatever, given the alleged overseas sourcing cited in the Steele materials, that there isn't heavy CIA involvement, inclusive of the very political Brennan, in assessing those materials for use. The FBI has no investigative capabilities in Russia and it would have been irresponsible for the FBI to move with that information without at least consulting with the Agency for corroborative support.
We are past the point where Christopher Wray should be requesting an independent investigation into this mess, whether it comes from the USAtty's Office in DC or another Special Counsel that would have the authority to pre empt Mueller - the FBI is hemorrhaging Integrity. The only thing that will stem the flow is to get to the bottom of the mess and a post Watergate Style root and branch reform.

shepherd

I hate to throw a technical wrench in the way of such a massive conspiracy, however the FBI does not run its own cell phone service, and thus does not have ultimate control over this data. This is a piggyback collection system that failed, not the real database. Whatever major carrier they were contracted with has the full records going back a year, probably more. Fox is reporting that the glitch affected 10% of all cell phones at the FBI, but given how this stuff works, I don't imagine that they can't get a backup of the records reasonably quickly. Fox mentions that as well.

Mark Gaughan

First off Sid, I am definitely not a Russiagate partisan. Second, I asked a question. I got an answer from PT. I did not produce an argument, let alone a classic one, either from ignorance or not.

Rhondda

Doesn't backstabbing count as force? Just kidding.

"If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both."

I had looked this up at Cornell earlier and it seemed to me there might be opportunities for strong prosecution in the areas I have bolded, above.

From reading the FISC memos, it appears to me they may have also broken a number of serious laws with regard to use of 702, unmasking, etc. 5 years here, 10 years there and we're talking serious time...

That said, I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV. This is way beyond my paygrade, as the saying goes.

I guess mostly I am just so completely outraged by this that I WANT these people to roast over a slow prosecutorial fire with serious consequences. Smokin' that hopium. Sadly, the rot may be too deep for what seem to me to be appropriate consequences.

Thank you for your reply. I always read and respect your comments.

Rhondda

Oh goodness, I just re-read what I bolded in my reply and I finally see what you mean -- force, force, force. Thank you for gently pushing me. I appreciate that.

I guess our founding fathers and lawmakers of earlier times must never have thought to include a provision for those guilty of a "soft coup."

Yes. Pretty dang slick.

Fred

Flavius,

"Comey leaked the triggering material to the NYT by washing it through his friend, the law professor at Columbia..."

The "friend" is now claiming to be Comey's personal attorney. Thus he can claim attorney-client priveledge and Comey can explain why he used the word "friend" rather than "my personal attorney" in his testimony before Congress. I can't image the members of the House are all too pleased with Slick Willy 2 Jimmy or the good professor.

Fred

LeaNder,

North Korea, The Peoples Republic of China, The Russian Federation and many other nations are not denziens of "the Swamp". Nice try though.
"but this is a déjà vu dive back into a close-up US partisan popular culture clash experience, I prefer to not be reminded of."
Yeah, the great '60s cultural liberation movements that would inaugurate the Age of Aquarius are finally experiencing some cultural blow-back as exemplified by Trump's election. How's that working out in Germany? Has Angela formed a new government? I can't imagine why that hasn't happened yet.

Charles

If a woman will cheat with you, she will cheat on you.

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