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24 January 2018

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Babak Makkinejad

Exactly.

If Turkey creates prefectures and grants them federal rights, Kurds will still not like it because then they still won't have their own country@!

Sid Finster

http://www.fort-russ.com/2018/01/syria-two-us-military-advisers-killed.html

FWIW

rams

"I have always assumed that the Kurds just want more autonomy to speak their language, govern themselves, decide and choose how they want to live"

Yes they probably do, but so does every other ethnic group in the world, and if they all had their way, the world would end up with 1000+ countries and 99% of them would be ungovernable and unstable.

Think of it this way: how quickly do you think the US could have collapsed in a civil war after the 2016 election had Hillary spoken Spanish and Trump in German during the election?

The concept of multi-language, multi-cultural society is a liberal fantasy. It doesn't work in real life. Also, it is more common for a culturally backwards ethnic group to demand autonomy and independence from a relatively advanced host society. This power disparity creates even more problems and headaches for both nations post-break off. (recent example: Sudan)

I think the critical point for us to consider is that any instability created in ME (even if it is done because of good intentions based on liberal fantasy) would simply create more refugees, and we all know where they all head to: our nations!!!

outthere

who's on first?

quote
the White House disavowed a plan by the American military to create a Kurdish-led force in northeastern Syria, which Turkey has vehemently opposed. Turkey, which considers the Kurdish militia a terrorist organization, fears the plan would cement a Kurdish enclave along its southern frontier.

That plan, a senior administration official said Tuesday, originated with midlevel military planners in the field, and was never seriously debated, or even formally introduced, at senior levels in the White House or the National Security Council.

The official, who spoke to reporters on condition that he not be identified, also said that the United States had no connection to the Kurds in the northwestern Syrian city of Afrin, where the Turkish military has launched an invasion in recent days.
endquote

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/23/world/middleeast/us-nato-turkey-afrin-manbij.html

elaine

https://www.yenisafak.com/en/

"True, Afrin is small...but it is where multinational plans are being squashed"

Editorials like this along with the recent friendship agreement between China, Russia & Turkey lead me to believe the Kurds aren't the only ones gettin' played

GeneO

I recall that awhile back a Turkish newspaper, one of the AKP party's propaganda outlets, published a piece saying Turkey could conquer all of Europe in just three days. It was back when the EU halted the entry of Turkey into the EU because of the post-coup purges in Turkey circa late 2016, and because of the human rights violations and ethnic cleansing in SE Turkey.

So at that time they were bragging three days to conquer Europe. But now they are stuck after four days against Afrin. They take a village or two or three, but can't seem to hold them against YPG counterattack.

If they want to take Afrin they are going to have to commit significant elements of the Turkish Army, instead of FSA and HTS jihadis supported by Turkish tanks, arty, and air. Those tanks need infantry support, and so far they are not getting much of it from the head-choppers and liver-eaters. Plus the mountains of Afrin are not ideal terrain for armor. Perhaps Erdogan should have brought back some of the purged colonels and generals to run this operation for him.

kooshy

You know and I know this BS "The official, who spoke to reporters on condition that he not be identified,"
the minute some (junior or a spokesperson)official who is speaking to fix a policy leak or FU and don't want to be identified , you should know the fuckup has happened and was decided at a higher level than his.

kooshy

"Meanwhile the Turkish military openly lied and said, they would be fighting ISIS in Afrin, "

wow, I didn't know that, that liying they must have learned from their NATO partners which includes the Germans. Did US lie saying they came to Syria fighting ISIS now they want to stay to confront Iran as long as it takes? In wars everybody lies, that is what is making it fogy, you must have missed reading TTG' first paragraph "In other words we are wading through a pond of bullshit." happy wading

C.Bridge

Did the SAR surrender him or kick him out?I'm astounded the YPG trusts the US.

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/02/20/world/us-helped-turkey-find-and-capture-kurd-rebel.html

OIFVet

I can see the Kurdish issue being an existential threat to Turkey. But I also see Turkish school books continuing to include maps that show large territories in the Balkans, the ME, and the Caucuses, as "Turkish vilayets." People like you and others who worship Ataturk may not be Neo-Ottomanists, but I can't say that about the people in charge of your government. As long as Erdogan is in power, your neighbors will distrust you. It's as simple as that, komshu.

Ishmael Zechariah

re: "Perhaps Erdogan should have brought back some of the purged colonels and generals to run this operation for him."
He did. He had to.
re: If they want to take Afrin they are going to have to commit significant elements of the Turkish Army.. We know this, and we will do it if needed. Given that this kurdish mess was caused by tayyip, and everyone in Turkey, including those who voted for him, know it, all casualties will be laid at his door, and most of the dead will be from his voters. He is trapped.
re:one of the AKP party's propaganda outlets, published a piece saying Turkey could conquer all of Europe in just three days
Sure, and National Inquirer has posted testimonials from folks kidnapped by Martians; The New York Times wrote about Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, and CNN has been broadcasting non-stop about the Russian perversion of US elections. The distribution of idiots is quite uniform.

To all bleeding hearts:
Turks do not need any lectures about "human rights". A while back JDLedell wrote that most izzies regard the Palestinians as domestic animals. No one, as far as I can remember, was aghast. No lurkers surfaced to take him to task. If you belong to a country who supports the izzies and do not fight against that first, spare us the platitudes; you have no credibility.
If you are fighting for the Borg, or wish the tools of the Borg success, fine. That is your right. It is our right to disagree w/ whatever means we have, despite the tayyip that rules us. If you feel very strongly about the issue, suit up and come on down to Afrin. We will have a shivaree.
Ishmael Zechariah

Babak Makkinejad

US, Australia, and Canda are vast and severly underpopulated countrirs. Surely they can find it in their bleeding hearts to give a very small portion of their land to the Democratic and Secular and Popular and Socialist Republic of Kurditan.
Even Germany, with its under populated East, can chip in.

Henshaw

Sounds like he's trying to offer a way out for the USA, so the present Administration could execute a quick 180 degree turn and explain it by blaming the mess left by Obama & co.

Also, I'd welcome some clarification from Erdoğan as to who he thinks the rightful owners of Manbij actually are.

Babak Makkinejad

The rightful owner would be the Great King, the founding King having been Dul Qarnain, prophet of God, per the Quran, and known to history as Cyrus the Great.

kooshy

by "Republic of Kurdistan" you really mean Khanate of Kurdistan or Khanate of Barazanies, this western countries they know very well what is going on here, HR, and the rest of the narrative BS is just standard leapservice for balkanization of western Asia, "A Clean Break" A New Strategy for "Securing the Realm" it is now catching up with our east of bosphorus NATO alley. IZ welcome back to Asia

" In call, Trump issues stern warning to Turkey over Syria operation"

GeneO

There are already close to a million Kurds In Germany.

Not too many here in the States. Maybe less than 40K, and good citizens. We should have more of them. You should spend a day or two in Nashville's Little Kurdistan. Newroz Market serves the best Middle Eastern food in America.

outthere

you say
"When Ocalan was surrendered to Turkish Government by SAR under threat of invasion, a new chapter began for Kurds in Turkey."
The LAT and NYT report that Ocalan was captured in Kenya where he was seeking refuge in the Greek embassy, and that USA tracked him on behalf of Turkey.
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/02/20/world/us-helped-turkey-find-and-capture-kurd-rebel.html

kooshy

IZ,
Many years back (early 80s) my company was printing for Turkish consulate in LA, assistant consul a very nice guy in his 30s named Sardar, use to come, and make print orders, mostly for very fancy invitations or greeting cards for consulate events. Sardar, in past had served in Turkish consulate in Tabriz, Iran. He called Iran and Iranians as Asian/ ME people and considered Turkey as western or European country, his reason was, otherwise Turkey wouldn’t have been invited to NATO, that is the reason I wrote welcome back to ASIA.

Babak Makkinejad

My mistake, thank you. But it was SAR that enabled his capture. Why didn't the Bleeding Hearts in Italy give him sanctuary.

Babak Makkinejad

Good. When will Germany give those Kurds their own country? Or at least a Free City of their own?

outthere

" But it was SAR that enabled his capture"
the article i linked says nothing about SAR participation in capture of Ocalan, so I do not comprehend your statement
quite explicit, it was Turkish commandos in Kenya with USA intelligence, support and intimidation of other nations

Annem

When the Turkish Republic was established on the remains of Ottoman territory following WWI it was a repudiation of the multi-ethnic/multi-religious empire in favor of a strictly ethno-sectarian homogeneous Hanafi Sunni Muslim population. This is the cornerstone of nationalism and any challenge is considered to be treachery.

Any Muslims who were of other ethnic roots were expected to adopt turkish language and culture. [The 20% of the population belonging to the Alevi faith were able to deal with this due to the stringent laicism of the political culture and constitution. Most of the Muslim refugees that had arrived from the Balkans and Russia went along with this and other local groups were forced to. The Kurds, about 20% of the population, did not and the government used sticks more than carrots in a region left highly undeveloped and poor in efforts to assimilate them.

After early uprisings that were brutally repressed, use of their language was banned in public and all symbols of their culture, music, literature, etc. were suppressed. In the 1970s, the modern insurgency, the PKK launched attacks on GOT facilities across the country and a civil war went on in high or low gear for decades. The PKK was outlawed as a terrorist organization and the US went along with the designation.
Reasonable Turks and Kurds admit that the battle can't be won militarily but the political barriers to a true settlement are enormous given that any concessions to the Kurds has challenged the very foundations of patriotism.

Yes, Erdo did begin steps to end the conflict and allowed, not just for Kurds, but for other religious and ethnic minorities concessions regarding their communal rights. When, however, he figured out that he needed the ultra-nationalists on his side to implement his autocracy he not only abandoned the process, but provoked renewed conflict and terrible repression of Kurdish population centers as well as destroying cultural and artistic forms of expression. The very progressive pro-Kurdish HD Party which brought into the parliament the most diverse set of MPs in the history of the Republic, including more women than ever, Ezidis, Christians, and a Mhalmi, religious and secular alike and representing the LGBT community. Moreover, the party gained considerable support from Turks, especially laborers who have seen their earnings declines and work conditions increasingly dangerous. All this has been gutted and its leaders imprisoned.

It is worth mentioning that since Erdo has dropped his mask, the country's Christians, essentially treated as foreigners with limited rights since the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne have also seen the positive moves made early on in the AKP rule restricted. Church property and even historical churches have been taken over by the government and right now, the Sultan has made clear that the next Armenian Patriarch will be his choice despite church traditions. They want their lackey in place.

As for Syria, the Ottoman era Kurds who found themselves on this side of the armistice line under the French mandate were joined later by Anatolian Kurds fleeing Turkey following the failed revolts. Independent Syria defined itself as an Arab country and gave little or no space for the many ethnic communities in the country. Angry at Kurdish resistance to some of these controls, the Baathists stripped a significant portion of its Kurdish population of citizenship, making them stateless. This was done in no consistent manner and they were totally disenfranchised from any rights, either to land, jobs, marriage to citizens, travel documents, or social benefits.

It has only been since the outbreak of this civil war that the Assad regime promised that he would restore citizenship to a portion of these Kurds if they supported the government. Since then, the regime has also made noises about some level of decentralized government as yet undefined. The Kurds have been careful to avoid for the most part, conflict between themselves and the SAG, so it is not impossible that they could side with the regime if they feel betrayed by their current sponsors.

outthere

" Church property and even historical churches have been taken over by the government and right now, the Sultan has made clear that the next Armenian Patriarch will be his choice despite church traditions. They want their lackey in place."
Exactly what Chinese govt did to Tibetan buddhists - chose Panchen lama of its own, rejected choice of buddhists. Dalai lama says he is the last, there will be no other.

confusedponderer

Babak,
interesting points, but Merkel is a lady, not a man - a 'Herr Merkel'. Since she is married it would be better to call her 'Mrs. Merkel'.

GeneO

Ishmael -

I'm 75, my suiting up days are long behind me.

Regarding the uniformity of the distribution of idiots, I agree with you 100%.

I do have a few questions, I hope I am not showing my own idiocy:

1] Long term what does Erdogan gain by taking Afrin? Sooner or later he will be arm twisted by Russia to give it back to Syria. Same with the Euphrates Shield area he has occupied, and the same for northern Idlib province. How will it sit with the average Turk in the street to give back land that Turkish soldiers died for?

2] Will Erdogan go ahead with his threat to go against Manbij next? By doing so he risks retaliation if US service members there are killed or wounded. If he does backtrack on his threat to Manbij, how does he square that with his voters.

3] I never understood the Erdogan talking point about keeping the Syrian Kurds from reaching the sea. Can you explain that for me? To get to the Mediterranean the YPG would have to take a large corridor through either Turkish Hatay (not going to happen) or through the Syrian provinces of Idlib and Latakia province (no way that Assad or Putin is going to let that happen).

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