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12 January 2018

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Annem

As for the border fees and regs along the various portions of the US-Mexico border, I suspect they are part of wider bilateral agreements, including for the movement of products and produce or it could also be part of NAFTA. Important to consider re foot traffic, much of it is daily commuters from one side to the other between places of residence and employment. Adding costs to that movement of persons would have to be passed along into the economy.

Want something to worry about? Seems McMaster and Lindsay Graham are keen to launch a limited tactical surgical strike on North Korea.

What we think of what our president says or does is but one aspect of the consequences. We can't lead in this world if nobody wants to follow us.

Peter in Toronto

Tucker is the only one worth watching on the cable news.

He's a natural contrarian which puts him at odds with the establishment narrative, and he's taken an interest in credible witness UFO sightings lately, having covered the USN release.

Huckleberry

There is no magic dirt. Shitty people make shitty countries.

Waving a copy of the Federalist over some African's head won't make them a functioning American any more than learning to eat with chopsticks makes one Japanese.

Naive libertarianism is bad enough, but pathological boomerism has nearly destroyed the Republic. Thankfully, there are some things we can do to stave off disaster.

We need to repeal Hart-Celler, deport ALL persons in the US illegally, reduce legal immigration to 10% of current levels (and restrict it to majority white countries with a few exceptions for white refugees from places like South Africa and Zimbabwe and truly exceptional individuals regardless of country of origin), and end dual-citizenship.

Anyone citizen seeking to leave the US to establish permanent residence in a foreign country (like, say, Israel) should pay a hefty processing fee of, say, 90% of their assets.

That would be a start.

optimax

CNN is playing up Trump's use of shithole as a sign of his racism. Yet I'm sure some of these talking heads have used the same word for the same places. CNN portrays diversity (minority immigration) as a magical process that makes America stronger. They can't explain how. They just want us to believe it doesn't matter who you let immigrate they will improve the country. They show examples of immigrants with sterling character that have succeeded in business or fought in our Armed Services and believe in America. Those are exactly the ones we want and the ones Trump welcomes.

The Virginian

While I grimace at the rudeness of Trump's commentary, I would say that many in the US do support that view rightly or wrongly, to include multiple generations of immigrants that originally came from such locations as they now benefit from being US citizens and do not want their gains threatened. With respect to "shit holes", I've been in a few myself doing anything from humanitarian support to risk advisory and other work. How some see themselves as victims and being willing to surrender their agency to others always struck me as a core issue - hopefully we in the US do not become similarly reliant on conspiracy and historical grievance to explain away things (hmmmm, is it too late, or is the US / West just a different reflection of the same thing). As I once told a group of Palestinians in the West Bank, even if the world is against you - so what. Either continue to be victims, or take responsibility for your own actions and do the best you can for your people. When asked by a group of Palestinians and Israelis what I thought about US national interest relative to their conflict, I replied by saying it was a shame that my country had wasted so much blood, treasure and political capital on two sets of peoples that offer America little in the way of anything that enhances American interests - they were a bit upset by my comments. My view does not excuse US / Western arrogance and stupidity, but either attempt to act (and succeed or fail) or accept your fate.

TonyL

Colonel,

Yes sir. I see. If the word "shithole" is taken literally, as you said, then I'd agree. I've been to many countries with poor sanitation and habit.

However, in the setting and context where DJT said this, I believe it was meant to be a metaphor (i.e. denigration, putdown...).

TonyL

The reaction around the world:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jan/12/unkind-divisive-elitist-international-outcry-over-trumps-shithole-countries-remark

LondonBob

Probably because he didn't say it, not that I would have a problem with him doing so.

Democrats had thought Trump was going to move forward with the DACA deal, but it got leaked that he was going to oppose it. So they planned a Character Assassination on Trump by claiming he called Africa a shithole. They also leaked talking points to media companies to stick by. Durbin is sore because he has been begging Trump behind closed doors to pass a clean DACA bill, not realising Trmp was stringing him a long. So Durbin lied to cover his stupidity and failure on DACA.

Adrestia

I always considered visa costs at entry fees, and depending on the corruption in government more subcharges are added when entering or leaving.
That said it usually works that once a country asks visa or entry fees, the affected country reciprocates. People will also avoid that country and prefer to go to another country. Turkey also started asking 'entry fees' and as a result less tourists are going there which costs the economy much more than the visas/fees generate.

This is an artfully constructed persona designed in my opinion to insulate him psycholgically from rejection by the nouveau riche elites in NY City.
I've started reading 'Fire and Fury' of the Great White Leader and my initial subjective impression as an outsider is that the book is plausible. DJT strikes me as a person who avoids negative information about himself by avoiding it and imagining a working ground, self-made background. A quote:
“What is this ‘white trash’?” asked the model.
“They’re people just like me,” said Trump, “only they’re poor.”

My 2 cents of diy psychological assessment.

Account Deleted

So much discussion of what Trump said yesterday and so little about what he actually did. Given what he did was contrary to all previous threats and against the wishes of the Rep. neocon fringe & Borg, perhaps it was convenient to have everyone's focus elsewhere.

This man has spent his life playing the media like a fiddle to generate the right kind of publicity for his various enterprises. Yet now we are to believe he is simply a gaff-prone moron. Not buying it.

turcopolier

TonyL

I never said that "shithole country" had anything to do with sanitation. Try to get your quotes right. The term is entirely intended to be denigrating and to suggest a country (state with recognized boundaries)in which society as a whole has proven itself to be incapable of sustained economic development, public administration, reasonably fair legal procedures and the like. People in such places may be quite educated in elite institutions of long existence and may flower into magnificence if trans planted to Switzerland, Canada, France, etc. but the society from which they came really sucks as a place to live. I will ask again - how many of such countries have you lived in? pl

turcopolier

Brenda Turner

Is that a name from a comic strip, something like "Little Orphan Annie?" I seem to remember a strip called "Brenda Starr." I visualize you as a frantically leftist woman student. Did you stamp your sneaker clad foot, cry and seek shelter in a safe zone after writing me a love note? pl

Bill H

LBJ many times said thing far more crude than calling several countries a shithole, but I don't recall even one newspaper or television talking head going into hysterics about his language or demeanor. Nor do I recall any person in a closed meeting running to the press in outrage to rant at great length with regard to a word used by LBJ in that closed meeting.

J

How do we get rid of the Borg? Which shit hole should we stuff the Borg into once they're removed from the levers of influence and power?

I know a really good outhouse that the Borg would fit nicely inside its shit hole.

Oilman2

I think this fits in with the whole CIA dominance of news, with their plants in most outlets distributing talking points and unsourced stories. Langley has long term goal of controlling news and made public and the government has vetted by law. Not much to be done other than simply switch it off - it's been this way a long time, but much more since 9/11.

I use overseas outlets for much of what I want to follow, because even if they are also state run, their focus and delivery of their facts indicates a lot, and much of the current news isn't international anyway - hence useless. With a completely shared viewpoint and bias, US outlets are just not credible, not to mention all the fabricated news. Pundits are clown shows...

I honestly don't think MSM will survive the next few years if there isn't any change - they are a complete echo chamber for existing policies and solutions - which are patently not working, as we all know. If CNN were not paying to be displayed in many locations, they would already be under.

I just got no idea what they will do as their viewer base continues to erode and their content becomes more and more gossip and trivial to what people want to know. As of now, there isn't another option out there, and the money needed to get into that sector is huge.

J

Colonel,

What do you think of the outhouse Rub' al Khali shit hole for the Borg's permanent residence? I think they would fit nicely there , but we'd need to make sure they had several quarts of oil to drink when they got thirsty. We know that water would rust their Borg pipes.

A. Pols

Well, well..
This thread really brought out the "fainting couch" subset.
However crude people might consider Trump's pithy language, it is the exact language that huge numbers of Americans would use in private conversation or semi public bar room conversation to describe awful dysfunctional countries full of awful dysfunctional people. His use of "shithole countries" totally resonates with people and the expression itself is so beautifully succinct and subsumes within it so much of the obfuscatory language that certain people use to tap dance around reality.
And, of course why would we want millions of people coming from those places bringing all their baggage with them?

Flavius

"The fault, Dear Brutus, lies not in our stars but in ourselves
If we are underlings..."

If the people, or the Nation, or the neighborhood aren't responsible for the place they make for themselves, then who is?
A shithole by any other name is still a shithole. I've been in shitholes around the world, in our country, and within 5 miles of the town in which I live. New York City calls displacing population in order to turn a shithole into not a shithole gentrification and feels better about itself. One can be sure that Mike Bloomberg or Bill DeBlasio would never say that anywhere a vote may lurk was a shithole - neither would either venture alone into shithole for love, money, or even a vote. Cops are required for venturing into shitholes, especially after dark.
It's a good word for those who can face up to it.

Degringolade

As I drink my tea, I am also rummaging around in my brainpan for something to write about. Might take a bit, because the first cup of tea is not completely consumed and I am reading while I am typing.

Ahh, I found it, People-From-Shithole-Countries.

Now, lets not imagine for a minute that I look down on the folks who want to immigrate to the US from the aforementioned shithole countries. I can categorically state that when my forebears came over from Italy in the 1890's, England in the 1680's, and Germany in the 1840's, you may rest assured that they were from shithole countries.

My travel experience has led me to quite a few shitholes. I love and respect my friends that I have met in each and every one of these places, but let's not imagine that these countries are differing flavors of tropical paradise that only produce virtuous folks fresh out of their successful audition for "Noble Savage". Nope, that dog won't hunt. There are any number of countries that are completely fucked up and anyone with a lick of sense (a fair percentage of any population) will move heaven and earth to escape.

No, in the spate of the vapors currently being experienced in the land-o-the-free, there is much emphasis and hand wringing about the ninth and tenth words in the phrase used by Dickweed. In the world occupied by the folks currently having the vapors, we are not providing positive words and attitudes toward other peoples and are thusly bad people who should no longer be invited to book clubs and cocktail parties. Fair enough.

But truth, lets look at the whole statement. Trying to actually find an unvarnished and unspun version of the actual quote has failed, so I will present this as the best approximation:

“Why do we want all these people from ‘shithole countries’ coming here?”

Now, let's imagine for the sake of argument, that Dickweed was an adult. and he asked instead:

“Why do we want all these people coming here?”

Now you have a question with some meat to it.

Look, we are full up. We can't seem to keep the folk here in America happy and employed and enjoying the possibility of some kind of future. Recent college graduates struggle in barista jobs and there is little or nothing in the trades. Manufacturing jobs are vanishing. The medical schools, dental schools, and business schools already closely resemble the makeup of the UN General Assembly.

To quote the Colonel:

"An RAF Wing Commander once said to me at a public lunch in a "shithole" that we Americans loot the world in search of talent and lure it to our shores."

If we are looking to recruit quality stock to improve the overall population, then by all means, lets have a go at it. But I think that ought to be made plain to all. But I think that the primary responsibility of the immigration policy should be outlined in detail and be reconciled with the needs of citizens and permanent residents already here.

Allowing immigration because you feel sorry for people and it assuages your conscience isn't a good enough reason for me. If you are filching the best talent from shitholes, aren't you subtracting the best chance of that country fixing itself? If you take the less qualified from a shithole, aren't you compounding our own problems.

Immigration policy serves the same purpose as a vacancy/no-vacancy sign on a hotel.

I do believe that we are full.

turcopolier

J

Somewhere uncomfortably cold or hot with little chance of creating a university. pl

Babak Makkinejad

Recruit quality stock to improve the overall population?

Would that include encouragement, nay, the requirement of each male immigrant having 4 or 5 native wives/concubines?

Thomas

"How do we get rid of the Borg?"

No need to, they have been in self destruct mode since the Babylonian Queen lost her coronation bid. And the end may be near by the panic shown over past couple of weeks. For all of us, we need a soft crash landing.

The important thing is to hold accountable those in authority that created this mess.

blue peacock
This thread really brought out the "fainting couch" subset.....Trump's pithy language, it is the exact language that huge numbers of Americans would use in private conversation....the expression itself is so beautifully succinct and subsumes within it so much of the obfuscatory language that certain people use to tap dance around reality.

The problem that we have is that the PC crowd dominate media and the coastal liberal elite enclaves. For them it is all about how you appear, your mannerisms and your speech, which is always patronizing towards their "shitholes" who are not pretentious like them. Trump drives them so intensely crazy precisely because he is so un-PC both in his behavior and his speech.

But what these folks don't get is their utter hypocrisy. Take for example the paragon of virtue Oprah and all those Hollywood glitterati wearing black, and tweeting hashtags. That is the extent of what they think that matters. Oprah wants to completely white-wash her close association with Harvey Weinstein for so long and for these #MeToo hash-taggers to expect anyone to believe that none of them knew about the predatory nature of Hollywood studio bosses for decades on out, is to assume that those who use unPC language are just uncouth idiots, which is exactly the kind of condescension that we see from them.

This is exactly the problem that I have with the evangelical crowd on the right too, who push their morality on the rest of us acting all so righteous but behind that facade they are more depraved than anyone else.

No one wants to talk about real immigration reform. I happen to agree with Trump that we should move to a merit based system and end the familial-based system that gives priority to brothers & sisters, grand-parents, uncles & aunts. Spouse is understandable but the rest of the family? Yes that means we only take in doctors and carpenters from Haiti and not someone who can't read or speak any English and the only skill they bring is as day labor. We can have a guest worker program for them where they come to the US for a temporary period and are rotated out to bring in another group.

Kooshy

I totally agree with the colonel’, this is not about sanitation, is about how much one cares about his/her country, politicly, economically as well as adopting to modern world.
Societies like languages must become dynamic otherwise they will die down like old unspoken languages. But IMO, even rich, modern countries become lazy and careless let their country become subdued by other interests. There are many example of this kind of eventually letting a shithole to surface-up , Europe has became lazy and tired and has let US to take over her security for no fee, as matter of fact Europe will have to let go of some of her other interests to keep her free American security. Or US got lazy or overjoyed after WEII and her political and judicial institutions were taken over by a group who cares for their ideology more than that of US citizens interests.

jonst

Your nuts. Nuts. Most Americans, including, often, people from those countries being called shitholes, do feel that way. And they spend impressive amounts of money, and/or emotional capital making that very argument to gain permission to stay in this country. Now does that mean they don't have fond ice cream parlor, or park, or some such place? A found relative? Sure....but they still don't want to live in those nations, and more importantly, they don't want to raise their kids there. I see nothing to be gained by rubbing their noses in this reality. But it is bullshit to argue it is not reality.

And another truth is--which you apparently firmly resist, many Americans are asking the same questions Trump is crudely asking. And so are a ton of Europeans, too asking it. Japanese and Chinese, India, and Vietnam, and so on and so and, and the Saudis, lets us not forget, do NOT ask the 'why are they here question....because they don't let them in. Period.

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