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15 October 2017

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b

There is a facsimile of an account of an anti-war Vietnam veteran who claimed to have been spat on by pro-war civilians during a parade protest in New York.

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2017/10/case-spitting-legionnaire.html
The Case of the Spitting Legionnaire

It is plausible but could use some corroboration.

(Note: I do not endorse the linked piece.)

bernard

dear col. Lang,

as indicated at a prior time, I respect and accept your report on the matter of the spitting, which is disgraceful.

There is a recent article by Robert Freeman about the causes of the US defeat in Vietnam:

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2017/10/09/why-us-lost-vietnam-war

Now, I have no particular military or historical expertise, but this would seem to sum up the view of a 'concerned citizen' such as myself.

I wonder whether, sir, you would care to comment on this article, and refute or rebut it or any of its points and arguments?

sincerely yours,
bernard from australia

turcopolier

bernard

you must be new here. As I have written before we lost the VN War in the US, not in VN. pl

LeaNder

Lars, who would have been a petty criminal at that point in time? What would have been listed as misdemeanor?

Concerning the mystery of life: do you have information how they did in VN or how they returned, if they returned, that is?

Was there a more general legal rule? In hindsight I can understand the judges. The army may be a better place then the private training/reeducation camps you seem to have in the States by now.

Randomly: would that include a young guy that after having a couple of beers with friends made the mistake of riding whatever type of vehicle home and got into a police control? Let's say someone that additionally tried to show off to his friends, who lived nearby?

LondonBob

Sorry I just watched some of that youtube presentation, incredibly dull so don't waste your time. The reviews and comments at amazon give you a better sense of the book and its implications.

turcopolier

LeaNder

The Project 100,000 men were almost all in menial logistics jobs where the biggest risk was of venereal disease or being killed by Vietnamese gangsters they were involved with over currency manipulation or blacketmarketing of US supplies. My first year in VN I ran an intelligence detachment in the mountains on the border. All my officers and enlisted soldiers were college graduates. pl

turcopolier

All

someone will remember that US troops in VN were paid in a special currency designed to inhibit currency manipulation but there was an active three way traffic in Military Payment Certificates, green US dollars and Vietnamese money. pl

LeaNder

Aware of the removal of shoes before entering mosques. ...

Strictly I have to remove my shoes on all the premises of family members with the exception of my brother's. ;) They don't ask me to lower eyes or voice though. Which in turn reminds me of the "soft-spokenness" of islamists, I was curious about shortly after 9/11.

http://balagha.net/islamic-manners/removing-shoes

But interesting to follow the history of the mosaic from Bush senior to Clinton, the dead artist (collateral damage? ...) all the way to Kris Kristofferson. ;)

thanks, oilman.

mike

Colonel -

MPC it was called - military payment certificates. Commonly referred to as 'scrip'. It was supposedly only good for the PX (if you had access to a PX, which many did not unless at a major base in the rear. But as you say there was a thriving black market.

There was something similar in ww2. My father brought home one paper note from Italy as a keepsake. It was a 100 Lira note as I recollect. Issued by the Allies and worth less than two bits he said.

LondonBob

I must admit I haven't actually read the book so I don't know how many he or the official recorders think actually ended up in combat.

Certainly is true poor southern white farm boys exist right at the intersection of lacking the middle class deferments whilst still having the right aptitude that the military sought, of course add in the culture of fighting and patriotism and they make the perfect recruits. As with most of America's wars they did they did the brunt of the fighting, and good thing too that they generally did.

turcopolier

LondonBob

There were basically two kinds of people in Army infantry. White Southern boys as you say and Blacks (often from the South.) These Blacks were typically not from the Project 100,000 cohort. pl

Lars

A good friend of mine did 6 years in the US Navy and when he got out, he built a still, got busted and choose the US Army this time. He became a cargo pilot in VN. Unfortunately, he died too young from cancer, possibly from exposure to Agent Orange.

mike

Colonel -

That may be true. I have no Army stats. But if you look at the ratio of combat deaths in Vietnam to state population it tells a different story. The National Institute of health has some data on those ratios.

It is true that New York, New Jersey, DC, and southern New England had some of the lowest rates of combat deaths. They were in the bottom ten. So was Louisiana. Alaska was lowest.

But many states especially in the west had higher ratios than southern states. New Mexico, Montana, Oklahoma, Wyoming, Hawaii, and Arizona all had higher ratios than every southern state save West Virginia (WV had the highest death rate of all at 42 per 100,000 population. BTW I served with several West Virginians and never thought of them as southerners although at least one of them had a Confederate flag tatoo. His ancestors who seceded from Virginia and fought for the Union during the WBS must have been spinning in their graves). My suspicions are that Hawaii rated high because it was a second home to many officers and NCOs.

Maine's ratio was comparable to Georgia and Alabama but higher than every other southern state.

Oregon had higher rates than every southern state except GA and AL.

New Hampshire and Washington State had higher rates than Arkansas, Texas, Florida, Mississippi, Virginia, and Louisiana.

Even the midwestern tier of Ohio, Michigan, Iowa Indiana, Missouri, and South Dakota had higher rates than Florida, Mississippi, Virginia, and Louisiana.

Even California's rate of 27.91 is comparable to Virginia (28.04).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2621124/table/T2/

Larry Kart

Perhaps that was the reason, but I've posted comments several times on NYT threads and what I posted didn't show up until several days had passed.

raven

Just how do you arrive at this conclusion?

raven

What does the makeup of a Special Forces unit have to do with the vast majority of troops in Vietnam?

turcopolier

raven

In this case not SF, intelligence field collection team. I was simply offering an example of a kind of unit that had very different people in it. pl

turcopolier

raven

Not a conclusion, an observation from interacting with them. pl

turcopolier

Lars

The likelihood that someone like the man you describe would have become a "cargo pilot" is so small as to be absurd. pl

turcopolier

Mike

OK Statistics man, I only know what I saw in the field. pl

turcopolier

Larry Kart

Comments were closed long before my comment appeated. pl

turcopolier

mike

I suspect that army and marine infantry population demographics were somewhat different. pl

Larry Kart

IIRC that was my experience, too. Perhaps when they say 'comments are closed," that means that no further comments will be accepted but that the process of sifting through comments that already have arrived will continue for a while. Can't say for sure about that of course, but in my case (actually cases) I was annoyed by the long delay, then relieved when my comments finally appeared. They were fairly testy comments, too, BTW.

LondonBob

Looks to me that Florida, Mississippi, Virginia, and Louisiana were very much the exception than the rule though (and even then they are still relatively high, except for Louisiana). Almost all the southern states had very high mortality rates otherwise. I would lump greater Appalachia states like Oklahoma and West Virginia in with the South, could even put Arizona and New Mexico there too.

https://www.counter-currents.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/3-29-17-6.png

Of course I would break it down further by race to get a more accurate picture, the high mortality states basically seem to be southern or rural white states.

turcopolier

LondonBob

If you are using Mike's table I would once again remind that these ficures are not diagrigated by service. pl

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