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15 October 2017

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paul

id rather have the left spitting on soldiers and being actively antiwar,

then showing respect for soldiers and tolerating endless war.

turcopolier

paul

Too bad you were not there to explain your position to me personally, too bad. Do you spit on soldiers now? pl

paul

i don't spit on anyone, but the left spent the past 8 years agitating for gay/trans rights to service in the military while the united states waged several unconstitutional wars of aggression.

spitting on soldiers does not damage the foundations of our constitutional republic,
letting the executive branch wage undeclared wars without any resistance is.

turcopolier

paul

So, you think the soldiers are responsible for tese wars, or the VN War, or WW2? Or perhaps you think hat we should be a soldier free zone like Costa Rica? Surely you know that I have actively opposed the post 9/11 wars? pl

paul

So, you think the soldiers are responsible for tese wars

where did i say that?

i said my preference was a very strong antiwar movement that also lashed out at people who don't deserve it, rather than a nice pleasant left that treats everyone with perfect respect and cheers for the wars of progress and liberalism against backwards dictators and instead of protesting wars is agitating for gay/trans rights to server in the military.

an irony you should look in to a bit more, your options are not "koombaya" your options are a left that despises the military along with those who join it, and a left that will make its main focus to push social justice reforms through the military

Oilman2

IMHO, all Americans should take each and every opportunity to spit upon our duly elected-but-bought-by-lobbyist congresscritters. They NEVER listen to their constituents, often voting exactly opposite of what their citizens tell them. I have emailed, written, and called - all I have ever received back from both representatives and senators is a canned response that says nothing, AKA nothingburger.

And FWIW, I have never been in the military, but I was spat on by some french asshole back during the "freedom fries" period, when transiting DeGaulle airport on my way to Frankfurt. It did not have the intended effect, as I dropped my bag next to my buddy, and hopped the escalator after him. He bolted right for the nearest security guy, so I just stood there, motioning with my hand for him to come back. He didn't, and the security guy just smiled. Did I mention that my attitude towards the French changed some??

Soldiers obey orders, unless they contradict their oath or similar deep, moral convictions. The extent and nature of that oath is, as most things are, an individual decision. Blaming soldiers for foreign policy is like blaming the McDonalds franchise manager for corporate decisions - misdirected.

Personally, I rather love the ME way of doing this - the ever entertaining 'throwing of the shoes'. Packs a bit more inertia than spit, and it has better range. Of course, running away with one shoe is harder to do, so it's best to hit your target, and hard.

turcopolier

paul

Yet another doctrinaire leftist. So, you would want the military to become an active political force on your side, the left. Do you know any people like me? Not draftees, they were just citizens doing their civic duty, but, actual soldiers. Do you know any, or are we just abstractions for you?
Neither you people on the left nor the rightists could ever control us if we took power. pl

AEL

There is an real dilemma. If you oppose a war, how should you treat the poor smucks who are prosecuting it? It seems unlikely that you will be able to get close enough to the real decision makers to spit on them.

It is a similar problem with how you treat the poor customer service rep when they are enforcing some corporate rule designed to cost you money or waste your time in order for them to increase their margins slightly.

Clearly the front line staff don't have a say in the policy, but they are the only agents of that policy within reach. However, abusing them is rude and unproductive (and you set yourself up for even worse counter-abuse).

What is the correct response?

paul

more of a libertarian these days, but being anything other than doctrinaire is unpractical.


p.s. hope im not being an ass, i don't condone their behavior nor do i condone the NYTs whitewashing of history, i just don't think this kind of behaviour can be separated from a militant antiwar movement.


good night and peace

Cortes

Disgusting that anyone would spit on another human being no matter the circumstances. Your restraint is admirable.

Off topic but as I endured a 7 hour layover in Dallas in early 2012 I saw a couple of young people in uniform begin to look a bit frazzled by random strangers approach and shake their hands. Their restraint also struck me as they may well have been in transit homeward bound from some hellhole.

The Twisted Genius

I missed that whole anti-war era. AS ROTC cadets and midshipmen at RPI (Rensselaer Polytech) from 72 to 76 the entire student body was too preoccupied with beer, pot and sliderules to worry about any anti-military feelings. The closest thing to that was the demonstration against Jane Fonda in my freshman year.

Many years later, I considered a different kind of anti-war statement. I kept an extremely powerful magnet from a very old hard drive just in case I got close to Cheney when he had his pacemaker. Was I serious about assassinating that miserable SOB if I got the opportunity? I doubt it, but I still have that magnet attached to an I beam in the cellar.

Pacifica Advocate

>>> IMO they should deny space to those who benefit monetarily from their op-ed pieces.

That would eliminate any contributions from half the staff of their columnists and editors. ;-)

VietnamVet

FourthAndLong

Being bi-coastal suburbanite; I read Kevin Drum, Paul Krugman and Josh Marshall blogs until, for whatever reason, they became fervent Hillary Clinton supporters. They are persons who never acknowledged that the Obama Administration was a continuation of the Younger Bush Administration or that he and Eric Holder let Wall Street take a walk. David Stockman brings back memories of the Reagan Administration.

My take is that rural America fell for right wing radio propaganda; for example, “War on Coal” or the “Mexican paid for Border Wall”. The large companies still left in middle America have spent their money on what they wanted; privatization, consolidation and deregulation. It is the Deplorables who are not getting much of anything from their government. Rather, they are being looted by the connected; for example, the healthcare and private education systems.

Yes, the Russians are scapegoats for the Establishment’s failings. I have yet to see one of the Facebook ads that supposedly changed the election.

Pacifica Advocate

Neither of those positions are native to "the left."

Have you never heard of the Spanish Civil War? The French Revolution?

turcopolier

paul

No. No peace. I and my comrades were grossly insulted and abused. To hell with you and all the other communist sympathizers. pl

mike

Good on ya TTG. Sorry you missed that draft dodging chickenhawk SOB. Five draft deferments! Or was it his two DWI convictions that got him off the hook? But unfortunately you would have had to get well within a meter to fry his defibrillator or even to just knock it out of whack.

Wonder if Deadeye Dick Cheney's deferments put Vietnam Vet (above) to the forefront of draft induction? Or the Rove/Limbaugh/O'Reilly deferments? Or Jr Bush and Dan Quayle and others who used family influence to go to the head of the line for service in non-deployable National Guard units?

turcopolier

TTG

Too bad you missed the chance to see what miserable bastards the American people could be. pl

Oilman2

@ AEL...

I handled the spitting by calling out that french guy as much as I could, considering the security. If you don't stand up for yourself, then what will you stand for?

If it is customer service, then the only vote you get is with your wallet - go elsewhere and even pay more - if you do not, then your principles are secondary to you saving a few silver coins or driving a little farther.

If it is government, then vote for change - it doesn't matter which side you vote for in America - just vote a new one in and hope they do better. In other places, vote for change as well - it is the status quo who are the issue in most governments.

Trump is symptomatic of how dissatisfied Americans are with right/left politics and the status quo in DC.

@ pl...

I am not so sure that our current military is united enough to even do that anymore. I have heard a lot of things from younger guys who got out recently, and very little of it was good. Apparently, political correctness and privilege have become very important. Conflicting orders common, unclear orders, weird TOE - lots of things.

I would love to hear from some guys fresh out regarding some of this.

Oilman2

@ TTG...

I doubt it will be God sorting out that man...

Fredko

My deceased friend and golf buddy, Deninis, Sgt. NYPD told me he was spat on upon his return and was infuriated of course. He also expressed in his disgust with John Kerry and the medals incident.

The Beaver

Colonel,

Sorry to go OT .
It is starting to get "hot" in Kirkuk tonight. Ça brasse comme on dit!
Barzani may be in for a good surprise. First PUK now the Iraqi Govt.

ToivoS

I met a draftee in 1970 or so who was in transit through Oakland on his way to Viet nam. He came from the Bronx and told me he had negotiated a listing in Saigon. He dealt heroin before and was looking forward to scoring some of that good stuff in Saigon to send back to his partners. I was very skeptical of his plans but what did I know about such things.

This guy came to us in Berkeley through one of the coffee shops some the anti-war activists ran in Oakland that catered to soldiers on their way to Viet nam. The coffee shop activists definitely encouraged insubordination but most certainly treated their customers as victims and not perpetuaters of war crimes. I didn't start hearing about the spitting incidents until the mid 70s though never witnessed any such things.

Walrus

No spitting, just Six years of social ostracism. Your only friends were the police. They knew what it was like.

lally

I was living in Berkeley in March of '68. The accounts of idiotic SF hippies spitting on soldiers were rampant as were the blanket condemnations of those acts by anti-war activists. The targets of the ant-war left were never those deployed to Vietnam, the outrage was tightly focused on those who sent them there.

After all, those at risk, the injured and the dead, were, by and large, our friends, our family, our own.

raven

Your comment was posted. I have responded to several of the Vietnam articles and it usually takes some time before they go up.

"Walter Patrick Lang Alexandria, Virginia 1 day ago
I was spat upon at San Francisco International Airport in March, 1968. I was on my way to Vietnam. I was a captain in the US Army, was in uniform and waiting in front of the terminal for a military bus to take me to Travis AFB for the airlift to Vietnam. A young woman gout out of a VW bug in the parking lot. She looked a lot like Momma Cass, fat and and in a mumy. She walked up to me and spat on my chest. I asked if they had a roster at her pad for spitting on soldiers. She said yes and went back to her car."

I will say again that the people who "spat on me" metaphorically were right wingers who didn't like anti-war Vietnam Vets. Nothing is ever going to change the minds of most of us on any of this. "It don't mean nuthin".

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