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24 August 2017

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Fred

TTG,

Not you, the cult-marxists. ESPN is quite concious of what they are doing, it's cut a couple hundred million out of its revenue stream by becoming political commentary rather than a sports network.

Fred

Bob,

Rejoice, you conquer! Or in this case my ancestor in Battery-B, 1st NJ artillery did. We maybe not conquer so much as win a war of attrition against people whose states said they seceded from the Union, kind of like California is threatening to do. At least the slaves are free. I'm still waiting for some folks to say thanks for the freedom; it's only been 150 or so years; maybe next Juneteeth. Meanwhile be sure to help the poverty stricken SPLC raise some funds by waiving the battle flag around. I hear they're down to thier last third of a billion. As for me, I'm a dues paying Democrat living in the great state of Michigan; though I shouldn't mention that to you since the Democratic Party is the party that enacted all those Jim Crow laws, succeeded for years to disenfranchise black voters and whose longest serving Senator and mentor to Hilary was a KKK member. Perhaps, in the spirit of reconciliation, we should issue a joint declaration of condemnation against Slick Willy and his wife for not taking down any of those monuments while he was Governor of Arkansas. Or President.

Congrats on the virtue signal though. Oh, on second thought, "dishonoring the US flag)" That's Colin Kaepernick, America's greatist victim of slavery, oppression and police brutality. I hear he's having trouble getting some billionaire sports team owners to give him another hundred million or so. I should write up something about that.

mike

K_H_C -

Thanks! I was vaguely aware of the pre-war Sherman in Louisiana. But had no idea he was popular there after the war. But probably they were glad that the Union did not send Beast Butler back and were happy to see Sherman as he was never considered an abolitionist. And Louisiana never felt Sherman's total war that he unloosed on GA, SC, and NC.

I was never a fan of Sherman. His March to the Sea and what followed was IMHO too late to affect the war.

I see on Wikipedia that he gave LSU two cannons from Ft Sumter. Wonder if they were Beauregard's or Anderson's?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tecumseh_Sherman#/media/File:LSUcannons_crop.jpg

The Twisted Genius

Bob,

We shouldn't be too quick to proclaim that all these Confederate monuments were erected to reinforce Jim Crowe Laws or as a backlash to the Civil Rights movement. Many of the monuments honoring Union soldiers and leaders were erected in the same time periods. And the Civil Rights era coincided with the Centennial of the war. That soldiers monument in Prospect didn't go up until 1907. Donnie Johnston, a Culpepper writer for the Free Lance-Star wrote a column today addressing this very point.

http://www.fredericksburg.com/news/local/columns/donnie-johnston-nation-is-losing-respect-for-its-history/article_41c296c1-1212-5eae-9978-bb60f81ed3fe.html

However, you are correct that the KKK, alt-right and neo-nazis have hijacked these monuments and the Confederate battle flag as symbols of their still held white supremacist ideas. That is what had brought all this hell down upon these symbols of the South. I think the only possible way to correct this is for those dedicated to preserving a non-racist Southern heritage to break that affiliation. At the same time, those of us who care for the rule of law must enforce the protection and preservation of these monuments and symbols until constructive solutions are found.

Lars

Very well stated Bob. I am sure TTG came about his views honestly, even if he tries to occupy an evenhanded space that may not exist. No doubt, most of these questionable monuments were erected to celebrate slavery and treason and are thus now condemned by a lot of people. By allowing Nazis and the Klan to advocate for, it has just increased the people against.

If the admirers and apologists for the Confederacy want to keep these artifacts, let them raise the money to build museums. That may not happen, since I have learned over the years that when wallets get involved, views change.

The good news is that there is a vigorous debate about all this. Hopefully, a solution will be found, even if it will not please everyone.

optimax

The Founders created a representative republic because they understood that democracy devolves into mob rule and chaos. That is what we're seeing with the protests against the monuments and Trump. It's the break down of our governmental process and no one knows where it's going to stop.

Portland, Or, is a breeding ground for progressive experiments. For years I've watched higfh school teachers encourage their students to leave class to march in the street over teacher pay, a sign saying "Build the Wall" a student wrote at anothjer school in an adjacent city and other causes I don't remember. These teachers must think they're Ghandi or MLk for teaching their students that whatever they want is the most important thing in the world and they have every right to demand it.But their causes aren't noble and are not based on true suffering but the suffering of their ancestors. I find that ignoble.

The Soldiers and Sailors Monument in Cleveland is a spectacular memorial to the 10,000 men who gave their lives in the Civil War.

https://clevelandhistorical.org/items/show/332

optimax

That should be "10,000 men from Cuyahoga county who gave their lives in the Civil War." I grew up in that county.

Bill H

I wonder how many in Atlanta are freaking out over Grant Field at what is now Bobby Dodd Stadium at Georgia Tech in that city. It is, of course, named after an entirely different Grant, one native to Atlanta, but I doubt that will get in the way of some reactionaries.

LondonBob

Nikki Haley's response, like everything else she does, was to curry favour with the neocons to aid her planned for bid for the Presidency. The Roof incident was an excuse to enact long desired eradication of Confederate memorials.

The opinion polls I have seen suggest Americans overwhelmingly wish the monuments to stand, and black Americans are evenly split on the matter. Unfortunately your university system is spewing forth fanatics that would make Mao's Red Guards look the picture of moderation. The old Yankee Victorian capitalists or Methodist and Congregationalist villagers from the North were happy to see the South have their history, the new masters of discourse, not so much.

LeaNder

Today, the Coalition of Minority Students at UVa demanded the cleansing of the campus, including suitable "Contextual" material at the site of Thomas Jefferson's statue on The Lawn.

you admittedly made me feel a little guilty, along the line of one of my favorite quotes: In every statement there is a little error and the error gets bigger until the snake is scotched, seeing you use quotes around contextual. Could it be, I overuse the word context? Beyond declaring myself a "cultural marxist" ...

On the other hand, I don't completely agree with TTG here while appreciating his "contextual" allusion to hysteria:

Ronnette Cooper can’t walk past the slave auction block in downtown Fredericksburg without wondering if her ancestors had been sold there.

...

She said that whether it remains at the corner of William and Charles streets or is relocated to a museum, a plaque be placed there. It should say not only that slavery was evil, but that America today stands for the success and liberty of all, regardless of their color.

Who are the citizen who cannot even walk on the street?

As far as I am concerned. and with all due respect to Ms Carr Rossi and Ms Cooper. Are they asking for contextualization since they are too lazy both as interviewee and journalist to look into historical context? Or as far as Ms Cooper is concerned. Is it more hard for black versus white people in the US to study their family history or "roots"? Is it much too hard to find out at what point in time the block got the additional plate? Which after all gives it "context"?

What's its history? Before getting rid of it, wouldn't people want to know it?

*******
Nutshell, not sure if this needs more visually present contextualization, beyond historical research. But maybe I didn't read Ms Cooper's article close enough:

http://www.getawaymavens.com/fredericksburg-va-one-day-is-not-enough/

Cee

Col. Lang,

I agree. The cost of removing all of these monuments can't be justified and the money would be better spent elsewhere. Plaques can be placed to tell the rest.

An example;

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/08/21/protesters-demand-removal-nyc-statue-hailing-doctor-who-experimented-slave-women/588661001/

Medical Apartheid: The Dark History of Medical Experimentation on Black Americans from Colonial Times to the Present is a 2007 book by Harriet A. Washington. It is a history of medical experimentation on African Americans

turcopolier

LeaNder

When I was a small child that auction block was embedded in the paving at that corner. We traveled around a bit. The people of Fredericksburg chose to leave it there for the last 150 years as a reminder of the improvement of society. It did not arrive from outer space so that TTG could discover it in 1988. pl

turcopolier

Bill H

US Grant was a pre-war slave owner. as was George Thomas. pl

Donald

Good post. I like the idea of more statues commemorating a broader range of people, if history is the concern. I thought the following article was going to be about Longstreet, but it was about a different Confederate general who had a postwar career as a member of a political party in Virginia defending black rights. He sounds like someone long overdue for a statue.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/the-confederate-general-who-was-erased-from-history_us_599b3747e4b06a788a2af43e?section=us_politics

Babak Makkinejad

Col. Lang:

This situation in US regarding monuments and memorials to men who fought for CSA is analogous to the situation in Europe regarding the monuments and memorials to the men and women who fought for USSR against the Third Reich; see please the fate of the Bronze Soldier of Talin @ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Soldier_of_Tallinn.

I am waiting to see when Germans will obliterate, under one pretext or another, the Soviet War Memorials at Treptow and at Tiergarten in Berlin.

The ruthless & viscous first Qajar Shah, Agha Mohammad Khan, is the founder of what became, eventually, the Islamic Republic of Iran. Yet his name appears on no buildings or streets or plazas, his visage is not on any Iranian currency, and no monument exists dedicated to him. Even in Tabriz, in the Notables of Tabriz sculpture garden, there is no bust of him.

Some historical facts and truths are evidently too unpalatable to future generations who wish to obliterate them from the historical memory.

SR Wood

Concerning the removal of Civil War monuments, I guess Virginia should get with the program of protecting their Civil War statues as other southern states have done. Alabama, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, Georgia, and Mississippi, all have laws on the books that are designed to prevent the removal of Civil War memorials and preempt local governments from removing them. So much for local control of government.

y.t.kealoha

More monuments to traitors who lost a war are needed asap.

Bobo

Today it's Civil War Monuments while yesterday its was BLM, Occupy Wall Street, Environmental Actions, Chicago Anti Trump protests, etc. now what will tomorrow bring. To me these chameleons with different names are out to disrupt our nation and take away our civil rights of assembly, speech, press, political thought etc.
The Democratic Party used to be one of Joe Six Pack today it's one of Jessica Yogamats who have no clue what these Crap Stirrers will do with them before they are finished tearing this country apart. The Republican Party is not much better but are now seeing the light when it comes to the Crap Stirrers. Frankly neither party is representing the whole of this country as they bicker away time in congress which is why the population is moving towards an independent view. But just let the chameleons continue and you will see large majorities of Republicans in congress as at least they know what Law and Order means.
I was born in the town and played as a child on Gallows Hill where some women were put to death because they were different, held odd beliefs or were just odd. We have learned from that. Respect thy Neighbor and all that he believes for that is his view as one desires the same Respect for his own views.

The Twisted Genius

y.t.kealoha,

Davis, Lee and the others were secessionists, not traitors. There is a big difference. The New England states came very close to seceding from the Union during the War of 1812. At that time these northern states thought the southern states had far too much sway at the Federal level to the detriment of the New England mercantilists. Traitor is a term that is thrown about far too casually today.

kao_hsien_chih

mike,

The received word on the cannons (which were what I was thinking when I mentioned monuments/momentos to Sherman on LSU campus) is that the story about Ft Sumter is probably a myth--the guns were manufactured in Massachusetts in 1861 and it is improbable that they were in either Confederates' or Federals' hands at Ft. Sumter by April of that year. Still, it's a nice story.

I've heard a lot of conflicting stories about Sherman's views on slavery--some recent accounts, details of which I cannot remember, made him seem like a full on abolitionist at times. He was, after all, a brother of John Sherman, the noted abolitionist (and anti-monopoly) senator from Ohio. I always got the sense, though, that he rarely made public his real sentiments and genuinely thought full-on "justice," by whoever's definition, and reconciliation, especially after a bitter and divisive struggle, did not go well together. If that is the case, that's a sentiment worth emulating. "Justice," to different people, mean different things. "Full on justice" can only be achieved by complete, even annihilatory, conquest of one faction over all those whom its members disagree with and the forcible imposition of what it considers just, and nothing is more incompatible with reconciliation and reflection than such abominable things.

kao_hsien_chih

Babak,

We need to keep reminding ourselves that even in Europe, especially Central and Eastern Europe, the history of World War 2 is quite different. (Or, as I keep bringing up, the peculiar and somewhat successful attempt by the Japanese in early 1940s to create a pro-Japanese version of Korean nationalism--which, of course, has been completely forgotten in both countries, at least officially.) History is complicated. It's not a morality tail. Different peoples have different memories that are socially sanctioned and reinforced. Nothing is a greater folly than to assume that everyone views the past events the same way.

kao_hsien_chih

@mike,

PS. One thing about Sherman, which I suspect you are already well-aware, is that he became close friends with Johnston after the war, to the point that Johnston, despite being in ill-health and foul weather, acted as one of pallbearers at Sherman's funeral and died soon after after catching bad cold. A joint memorial to Sherman and Johnston would be something that I'd love to see.

turcopolier

SR Wood

The states are legally sovereign, not the localities within them which usually operate with the four corners of a charter granted to them by the state. All other power is reserved to the state under the Dillon principle. I think Virginia does have such a law, but the governor seems loath to apply it and annoy the street people. pl

Babak Makkinejad

I think his real sentiment was: "...damn all those who brought war into our country..."

Babak Makkinejad

Yes, of course. That Romanians, Croats, Muslim Bosnians, Western Ukrainians, the Hungarians, and the Italians were solidly behind the Third Reich is best forgotten.

That Austrians were basically asking Germany to come and take them over is something impolite to mention in Polite Company.

That French Police were helping the Gestapo in rounding up the members of the Resistance or Jews, that NAZI Dutch held a huge rally outside of Rotterdam after its bombing by the Luftwaffe is also erased from memory.

That ordinary Germans, Hungarians, Poles and Ukrainians were murdering their Jewish fellow-country-men (per the ideas of Citizenship of the Enlightenment Tradition) in street are conveniently obliterated from memory.

Lastly, there was that little matter of the SS, an all-volunteer force of foreign nationals recruited to fight for the Third Reich.

It was all USSR's fault - we all know - and it is Russia's fault today that we are not living in a Post Post Enlightenment Utopia.

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