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24 August 2017

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Nightsticker

TTG

On the topic of tearing down monuments, page 195
of my copy of George Orwell's "1894"
has this passage which, sadly, seems relevant
to what is currently taking place

"Already we know almost literally
nothing about the Revolution and the years before
the Revolution. Every record has been destroyed or falsified,
every book has been rewritten, every picture has been
repainted, every statue and street and building has been
renamed, every date has been altered. And that process is
continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has
stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which
the Party is always right."

Nightsticker
USMC 65-72
FBI 72-96

Nightsticker

TTG,

Make that George Orwell's "1984".
1894 is my marlin carbine model #.

Nightsticker
USMC 65-72
FBI 72-96

mike

Thanks TTG. Well said!

As the descendant of families who fought on both sides in that horrible war that killed close to a million Americans - on both sides. I second your recommendations.

Mark Logan

Nightsticker,

I believe the idea isn't to destroy history. If anything blacks want the civil war remembered. It's due to the adoption of Confederate symbols by today's white supremacists, whose message is actually the opposite of the Lost Causers. They believe the war had little to do with slavery, if I understand them correctly.

The Roof incident got this ball rolling. I believe what prompted Nikki Haley to bust the dam was a feeling of a need for a reciprocal gesture for the magnificent grace shown by the survivors and the victim's families. This sort of gesture is IMO a true southern virtue, but moreover it sends a message to those who have adopted these symbols and have begun using them as rallying points.

Whatever symbols they adopt expect a lot of people to mess with that symbol and/or them for doing so. Orwell might not be a good fit for this, is all.

iowa steve

Yes, my Kentucky wife reminded me the other day that her great-grandfather fought for the Confederacy until he was captured. He then switched sides and fought for the Union. After the war he eventually was able to draw some veterans benefits from both sides which my wife's family cynically figured was his plan all along. He was referred to by the family as "Yankee Duvall".

turcopolier

mike & TTG

"I second your recommendations." What recommendations are those, to stay calm? It's really easy to be calm about the wave of cleansing when you live on the beach in Washington State or really think yourself a Northern person even though you live here. My abolitionist ancestors were all in the Union Army, so I suppose I should easily be calm about radical students throwing paint all over Lee's statue in Charlottesville, but, you know what I AM NOT calm about it. Today, the Coalition of Minority Students at UVa demanded the cleansing of the campus, including suitable "Contextual" material at the site of Thomas Jefferson's statue on The Lawn. It would seem that DJT was right when he asked, to the outrage of the revolutionary left, if Washington and Jefferson would be next. pl

The Porkchop Express

They could always follow through to the logical conclusion and disband UVa since Jefferson founded the damned thing.

I am curious about the legacy of William Mahone in Virginia. I came across this article yesterday, which I found fascinating. I've heard Mahone's name with respect to the Civil War but knew nothing of his post-war career or of the readjusters. Does the author paint a fairly representative picture of Mahone and the readjusters in Virginia?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/the-confederate-general-who-was-erased-from-history_us_599b3747e4b06a788a2af43e

mike

Colonel -

I have no beef with Lee's statue or most other Confederate veterans' statues. Let them stand in peace. If someone does not like them, they should turn their head as TTG recommended. And I would have no problem with erecting a memorial to the Black 36th Regiment entering Richmond either.

On the other hand maybe we should be removing memorials to 'Beast' Butler. But I do not know of any statues of him. There is a painting of him in the New Hampshire statehouse as he was born in Deerfield. And there is probably a bust of him in the Mass statehouse or in Lowell? Take them down. What about Sherman? Rename the M4 Medium Tank to Lee or Stuart? Oh wait, never mind we already had both of those.

turcopolier

Porkchop Express

Mahone was an inn keeper's son. He was an excellent division commander. After the war expediency caused him to become a Republican. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Mahone pl

Nightsticker

Mark,

" They believe the war had little to do with slavery, if I understand them correctly."

"Two days before Lincoln’s inauguration as the 16th President, Congress, consisting only of the Northern states, passed overwhelmingly on March 2, 1861, the Corwin Amendment that gave constitutional protection to slavery. Lincoln endorsed the amendment in his inaugural address, saying “I have no objection to its being made express and irrevocable.”

There is a great deal of literature on the subject of
how Lincoln, the Union soldiers, and most citizens in the Northern
states felt about the slaves and colored folk in general.
I will leave it to you, if you have not already done so, to
do the reading. It is extremely heavy reading but, for the Southern
point of view, I recommend to you "A Constitutional View of the War between the States, its Causes, Character, Conduct and Results"
by Alexander H. Stevens [2 volumes]. He of course was the vice President of the Confederate States of America.
Orwell was a most interesting man. He started out as sort of
a 1936 version "snowflake"; went to fight in Spain; discovered the true face of Leftism [see Homage to Catalonia]; wrote "1984". There can be no mistake; he thought tearing down statues and monuments
was an attempt to erase/rewrite history.
I was flattered that you took the time to respond to my post.
So it is in a friendly frame of mind that I encourage you
not to write sentences that could be possibly construed as
sympathetic, understanding, or encouraging to nasty, bed wetting, limp wristed,rear area, cosmopolitan,illiterate, gender confused, perverts who want to tear down statues of General Lee, his officers and men.

Cordially,

Nightsticker
USMC 65-72
FBI 72-96


Fred

TTG,

What wonderful ideas. The anti-American left can erase the past so that they can control the future and we should all just 'chill out'? This is a wonderful distraction from:
MSM's overt racism, this particular piece directed against an Asian American reporter:
http://nypost.com/2017/08/24/espn-president-we-were-protecting-robert-lee/

The Google/Gulag Manifesto and the requirements of corporate conformity imposed by the left:
http://www.businessinsider.com/google-sundar-pichai-anti-diversity-manifesto-fired-2017-8

Ongoing racism on campus directed against white students and professors, which is on top of the damage Melissa Click did to the University of Missouri or Rolling Stone managed to inflict at UVA with a fake rape story:
http://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/editorials/the-evergreen-state-college-no-safety-no-learning-no-future/
(Howard University student outrage at a trio of high schoolers is just icing on the three-layer cake of it's ok if you are on the left:
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/08/22/white-teenage-girls-claim-they-were-harassed-at-howard-university-for-wearing-make-america-great-again-hats-hbcu/23157174/ ).

We are watching the cultural marixsts in action setting the narrative that society is not componsed of individuals but identity groups and you are either a victim or an oppressor; and of course white Americans, especially traditional Americans or Southern Americans are and have always been racist.

Topping it all off is the vaulue of distracting attention away from the ongoing investigation into the infiltration of the US House IT system, at least on the Democratic side, by Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman-Schultz's now idicted IT staffer(s).

kao_hsien_chih

@Mark Logan,

The trouble with "history," as popularly understood, is that it is a tool of propaganda, a set of convenient truths, half-truths, and sometimes, plausible but outright lies jiggered together for the politically ascendant factions today. In a sense, the re-emergence of a lot of Southern symbols a few decades ago had more to do with the politics of 1960s than the events of 1860s, and the movement today to wipe out (or to "defend") the memorabilia of 1860s has more to do with the politics of 2010s than the actual "history," made up of the events whose nuances are conveniently ignored, suppressed or twisted out of shape, by all sides.

Most of it, of course, is anathema to an understanding of the actual history, much like those who want to ban Huckleberry Finn because of the N-word, without even bothering to know what the book is about, a product of wilful ignorance and an surplus of self-righteousness. The best counter to this, I thought, is an understanding of actual history--but few people seem patient enough to actually know the past for the past, and not what they wish it was. I suppose it's not just limited to just history, though.

I rather liked the way TTG described the way Richmond dealt with the weight of the past: rather than taking the monuments away, she added more. If the past (or anything else) can be understood in a better context, with greater nuance, I'm all for it. Not to pass judgment, one way or another, for Father Time's judgment will ultimately be greater than any of us mortals in due time anyways, but so that we can at least understand why things happened as they did. For those who are impatient, I suppose, it'll make all things so complicated, but that is not such a bad thing, if it means people needing to slow down in their rush to form a judgment and have to think a bit.

The Twisted Genius

Fred,

How did you get the idea that I want history erased? Throughout this post I called for more history to be put on display and nothing, no Confederate monuments or slave blocks, to be moved or razed. Read the whole thing before going rabid.

As for ESPN's pulling of Chinese-American Robert Lee out of calling a Charlottesville game, That's another example of not staying calm. I wonder if ESPN realizes how ridiculous they look.

kao_hsien_chih

mike,

Sherman was the founding superintendant of what would become LSU--it was founded as a state military school just before the Civil War. I believe there are several monuments/momentos to him at LSU, as his leadership was fondly remembered. I always thought they were a nice gesture, reminders of the complexities of the Civil War.

kao_hsien_chih

@mike,

PS.

Apparently, there is no formal university-wide recognition of Sherman at LSU, if this op-ed piece is to be believed. If so, I stand corrected:

http://www.theadvocate.com/baton_rouge/opinion/article_fc70868a-25dc-11e7-86a2-2b4ada8d06e7.html

But in this case, this would be an excellent addition that could be made to LSU, a bigger, more prominent reminder of the complexities of the Civil War and the people who fought in it, a reminder that we should remember the past, all of it in the manifold complexities, not forget all that's at odds with what we of today think the past should be.

The Twisted Genius

Nightsticker,

Exactly right. We should be reminded of and learning more history, the good, the bad and the ugly. To do otherwise is foolish and literally ignorant.

elaine

Colonel, James Madison was the main author of the U.S. Bill of Rights &
was also a slave owner. So I also wonder where does all end?

Do the antifas want to abolish the 1st & 2nd amenments? Where does it all end? New rights? Free health care, free college education & free housing? "From each according to his ability to each according to his need"? Some leftist utopia? This isn't just about marble & bronze. Next come reparations? More noise about CW equals martial law. Silly humor like
replace the monuments with statues of Tom Brady or big busted woman don't
help either.

To hell with natzis & the klan, to hell with slavery wherever it exists today but these rioters appear to be going after the U.S. Constitution if you follow their reasoning to a conclusion. I share your concern on many levels. Thanks also to Nightsticker, his 1984 reference is spot on.

The Twisted Genius

pl,

My recommendations emphasized keeping all monuments and memorials in place. I also called for more memorials in Richmond. Do you think the Lincoln memorial at Tredegar should remain in place?

Cvillereader

A monument of Christopher Columbus was vandalized in Baltimore this week, and Mayor De Blsdio is considering removing the Columbus statue in NYC.

The Joan of Arc statue in New Orleans was recently spray painted with the words "take it down." In Los Angeles, a statue of St. Junipero Serra was painted red, and "murder" was scrawled in white letters.

I wonder about the candor, or perceptiveness of anyone who suggests the recent spate of iconoclasm promoted by the radical left is primarily driven about issues related to the Confederacy and/or slaveholding.

This is about hating Western Civilization, "white privilege", and our form of government.

Mayor Signer would do well to study the fate of Robespierre when he attempted to institute a Republic of Virtue.

As the outrageous antics at the Charlottesville City Council this past Monday so amply demonstrate, it is very hard to control a blood thirsty mob. The cynical politicians who have tried to manipulate BLM and Antifa for electoral advantage may soon find that they are the mob's next victims.

Stephanie

I think this group is a small minority. I hope so.

They also want to turn the lawn into a residential space. I begin to wonder if these kids knew anything about Jefferson before applying to attend his school.

I think it would be cool if the statue came to life and ordered them to Get Off My Lawn. Although that is not what Jefferson would want. He'd try to engage the students.

bluetonga

As my son would say, why don't they demand the leveling of pyramids? After all, they have been built at terrible costs for dark-skinned slaves.

I am from Europe. I have got family in Richmond. Haven't been visiting for a while though, prefered the old ways. US have changed a lot in a couple of decades.

Yet I still visit your blog which seems to be deeply rooted in Virginia. This might compensate after all. My salutations to Virginians, their heritage, be it glorious or shameful, and all sensible Americans.

Cortes

The monumental lines of Horace:

http://nonnumadanda.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/horace-ode-330.html

Latin and English.

The many losses of physical monuments through ideological or religious causes or mere avarice (village WWI and WWII plaques commemorating multiple members of local families who lost their lives have been levered off of walls and sold for scrap value in many parts of the UK - hey, let's all welcome the Roma!) shouldn't obscure the fact that great words can, indeed, really convey the spirit of their creators down through the succeeding generations.

J

Colonel, TTG,

Can I ask two questions, and the first one is -- I don't understand why it's not being done, namely why aren't the opium/poppy crops in Afghanistan being destroyed instead of letting them continue unabated? Our satellites know exactly where every poppy field is, and we can defoliate/destroy Afghanistan's entire opium poppy field within a month easy, back to the question why aren't they being destroyed? Who gains by their continuation?

Every area that the Taliban gained control of, the Taliban proceeded to eradicate the opium poppy crops in the areas they held. So why don't we the U.S. do the same?


Now to the second question, has Valerie Plame Wilson lost her mind with her gofundme campaign to kick POTUS off Twitter? Such an idea IMO is really stupid and dumber than dirt. Has the Taos yuppie mindset fogged up Valerie's thinking processes?

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/32477/53/


Ok, now I'm done with my questions.

Send in the Marines and let them decimate/destroy/eradicate Afghanistan's opium/poppy crops.

Bob

The phrase "anti-American left" is ironic, inasmuch as it occurs in the context of a discussion of monuments to traitors who were so 'anti-US' they chose to secede from it.
"...Southern Americans are and have always been racist."
Many of them, yes, absolutely. The statues that have provoked the demonstrations (demonstrations that saw Confederate flags and Nazi flags displayed alongside and dishonoring the US flag) were erected as displays of white supremacy when Jim Crow laws were being enacted and civil rights legislation was being fought. It continues to this day, with the apologists for the statues, the neo-Nazi and KKK demonstrators, and the Southern War of Treason in Defense of Slavery mostly being members/supporters of the same political party that is working systematically to disenfranchise black voters.

VietnamVet

TTG

The Confederate Statue controversy reminds me of Ukraine and other hotspots where a radicalized majority gains power with the help of outside agitators and starts lording itself over disenfranchised minorities. Being a Westerner by birth, every single statue of Robert E. Lee is worth keeping and remembering for one simple reason; he surrendered at Appomattox and spared North America a protracted guerrilla war. Since the elite have lost all sense of history with their mad money grab from everyone else with the forever wars; a future historian might well say that the second American Civil War started in Charlottesville, VA when black shrouds were placed over the statues of Stonewall Jackson and Robert E Lee.

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