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20 August 2017


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Old Gun Pilot

U.S. surface warships in addition to the GPS and radar and the officer of the deck on the bridge, have human lookouts on both the port and starboard as well as a man overboard watch on the stern. All surface war ships will have standing orders that if any ship approaches within a certain distance, usually 3 to 5 miles the captain is to be notified. The captains quarters are always adjacent to the bridge so that he can immediately make his appearance.
No matter what else happens or is discovered about this accident the captain will be relieved and his career over. The Navy has a no excuses policy when the ship goes aground or is in a collision.
The question is, now that we have had two such incidents in short order will Admiral heads roll also.



They are going after Trump first, and then they are coming for the first amendment. Their goal is to make it a crime for which you will be thrown in prison to deny or discount the holocaust, like has been accomplished in many western European countries.

The flip side is that the neocons and the left are generating more antisemitic sentiment in this country as a result of their actions.


Here's a little background on WAIS and X.500 which were the foundations of search engines like Google:
If you have the proper gauge tinfoil, I guess you could say that the funding that Thinking Machines, Inc. got from DARPA is "CIA", but I'm fresh out of tinfoil.

Clueless Joe

Well, it's women's opinion of Trump which has been in a freefall and is abysmally low, while Men's opinion is bad but not really worse than what we've seen before, with still 43% support and barely 32% of men who wants him impeached:
And that's NPR, so definitely not a Trump-loving group - odds are the numbers aren't as bad.
That's the key factor anti-Trumpers should take into consideration: as long as Trump's support among men is significant, it's way too dangerous to want to evict him. If they have any sense, they won't antagonize tens of millions of people who might see this as an actual coup and could react violently; they'll have to have serious arguments to back it up and shift the opinion even more. Of course, the key part here is "if they have any sense".


@ Bill H & pl...

I have my merchant license and have moved semi-submersible drilling rigs in very crowded Gulf of Mexico seaways and other spots in the world. I get what you are saying, and have been in both positions. Even if the burdened vessel is ignoring rules, in both cases a USN vessel should have a performance envelope capable of avoidance - combat tactics anyone?

I was taught that simply changing speed is enough in most cases, as it changes everything in avoidance equations. These commercial ships are very big, and their maneuvering is ponderous at best. USN ships are supposed to be capable of better handling than tankers and ore carriers, yet it seems as if they rely on RoW rules instead of tactical awareness, from what little we get in the way of facts.

I am wondering if it isn't a reliance on RoW rules compounded with the "freedom of navigation" mindset of the officers? Or maybe over-reliance on computers? Thumbhumping smartphones while on bridge duty?

I'm not familiar with these ship designs, but I do know what bow and stern thrusters can do for maneuvering, and it is as impressive as vectored thrust on an aircraft. Whatever the case may be, for this to happen indicates a complete lack of situational awareness IMO. And it is costing lives of innocent sailors.

My gut says that a sailing vessel with a man in the crows nest could have avoided a tanker, whether burdened or privileged - so what really happened? Do they still have a human watch topside? Or is the watch strictly on computer screens?

A tanker is just a dot on the screen in a digital bridge - not the same as seeing these behemoths on the ocean.


Yes - the watch officer bears responsibility, at least in commercial instances. Ultimately it is the Captain, yet I have no idea how a watch officer is selected in the Navy. If it is a popularity contest, then that is problematic at best.

In my business, it is guys who know their stuff, no matter their personal habits or preferences. Experience is important, which is why we have a junior watch officer - to get that experience.


I just found this:


Perhaps it explains the mindset of the USN better than I can...


I have been trying to imagine how it is done for months - this seemingly coordinated media onslaught.

Pieces of my puzzle keep pointing toward missing pieces.

Any story, like Cville, with superficial, repetitive reporting, seems to flag a narrative that is already set and that what is important are photos and videos, sensational as possible, out of context irrelevant. Do we even know when photography has been technically enhanced?

Why is coverage so one-dimensional? Why don't reporters ask questions that readily occur to any thinking reader/ listener? (Even simple factual questions: e.g. Cville - What was the official "plan" that the police chief referred to? Where was the Guv on Saturday? etc.) Have they forgotten how revealing details can be? Do they lack curiosity or imagination these days? Has the source of most U.S. reporting - the Northeast - become such an echo chamber that reporters cannot "think outside the box"? Not enough reporters starting on the local police beat instead of in journalism finishing school?

How is it that all major media are on the same version of the same major story each day? And that so many of the dominant stories revolve around issues and events that are more symbolic than substantive?

Does anyone do serious investigative follow up these days on the substance behind the symbols? (Like real oppressions that burden black and white communities, at the ground level. Or examples of problems solved, racism diminished?) - If anyone is investigating in meaningful ways, how is the press so quiet about it. Can profits, shortened consumer attention spans, and least common denominator explain it all away? Do fear and labels really sell better than detailed, 3-D explorations and news of positive changes?

And the big question, how does every reporter know to spend half the report pinning bad news on Trump, or ridiculing any statement he makes. Does the editor say, "Go back. You forgot to mention Trump," until every reporter knows without being told.

The anti-Trump memes were well established early: Putin, white racism, misogyny. Last meme dropped out early. After months, Putin-Trump has lost feasibility and interest, at least for now. Racism is on the front burner. Do owners and publishers agree on those points, and then the reporting takes over by itself, with the aid of strategic leaks and the discovery of compliant events? Does one, designated press outlet signal to others, when the lede story is shifting?

One sad fact seems clear. The multiplicity of voices in the press have gone silent. Only to be found sometimes in the depths of the internet. The fake news meme is starting to work away at those voices now.

It is, indeed, a dismaying puzzle.


The "statue made me do it defence " seems very plausible. In his Foreword to the Faber paperback edition of American scholar E.P. Evans's classic "The Criminal Prosecution and Capital Punishment of Animals", Nicholas Humphrey mentions the practice in Ancient Greece of trying and then banishment of statues which had toppled and injured people. Banishment was symbolic death.


Well yes. Neumayr. Pope Francis is highly suspicious too, considering to the what extend the Jesuit counter-revolutionaries always were? Pars pro toto? Weren't they among the earliest recorded conspirators or among the earliest of conspiracies in history after all?


George Neumayr: From the first moment I saw him, I knew that he was going to be a Modernist wrecking ball, and he struck me from the beginning as the prototypical “progressive” Jesuit. I knew it was an extremely bad sign that the Church would name the first Jesuit pope at the very moment the Jesuit Order was in its most corrupt and heterodox condition. I knew it was going to be a distressingly historic pontificate, and from the first moment of Francis’ papacy I began thinking that his pontificate would be a good subject for a book. As it unfolded, it became clearer and clearer that someone need to chronicle this consequentially chaotic pontificate.

steve g

Bill H @ 22
Don't you mean damage on starboard side.
Video shows damage on the right side of
both ships. Port is left isn't it?


Google wasn't created but (partially) funded as well as many others by the CIA tech investments branch In-Q-Tel.
Basically they pour money into any tech startup which may have relevance to intelligence gathering or analysis, so nothing out of the ordinary here.

The Twisted Genius


Thanks for that audio clip of the US Navy demanding that a Spanish lighthouse alter its course. I agree that this attitude is probably at the core of these avoidable tragedies at sea. I don't know if it's an official law of navigation or not, but the concept of the bigger vessel having the right of way makes eminent common sense to me. I would think a naval destroyer would revel in its speed and agility. Apparently not.

I would also think that all Naval line officers are qualified as watch officers and periodically assume this duty when their name comes up on the duty roster. That how staff duty officer, field officer of the day and officer of the day duty is done in the Army.

I am wondering if it isn't a reliance on RoW rules compounded with the "freedom of navigation" mindset of the officers?

The "mindset" of navy officers can be strange at times...



The forward to a law book mentions Ancient Greece so That's a legal precedence? The statues didn't kill anybody though they are being "banished" as symbolic death of traditional culture. Perhaps we should raise some new statues to honor the new culture: "The Policeman meets Justice" Michael Brown with his foot on officer Wilson's neck, fist raised in the Black Power salute. In fitting with 21st technology we can have a video monitor in his chest showing Beyonce's "Formation" i.e. the "Cop Killer Movement" in celebration of America's new culture. It's bound to be an attention - and vote - getter.


Sort of supports the idea of very complex systems in the hands of dimwits.

steve g

steve g to steve g
my mistake on McCain


Funny, but I was reading the comments and its fake. It is an old joke - which when typing this - I recall having hard a long time ago back in the days when the Soviet Union was our archenemy.


The McCain and the other collision obviously suggests to the Navy that they need to rule out a systematic issue with the training of Naval Officers.

To me, an amateur yachtsman since age Nine, it is hard to understand how such collisions could occur outside of hostilities or training exercises.

The International rules for Prevention of collision at sea (Colregs) are quite clear; keep a good lookout, analyse the risk, take early and obvious avoiding action and leave plenty of room.

It is inconceivable to me how a light, nimble destroyer ends up under the bow of a 100,000 ton tanker or bulker. Those ships are no more manoeuvrable than a dead whale.

There is every electronic gizmo know to man on that destroyer and the merchant ships are pumping out their own position, course and speed by AIS for anyone to read, even my own yacht nav. system tells me closest approach, time to go and collision risk for all AIS targets automatically. To borrow Col. Langs words; "it's a puzzlement" how this could happen to alleged professionals.


If it is a fake, then apologies - I simply put in search terms and that returned. If fake, then there is likely a core of truth regarding the USN attitude heard in the dialog.

My questions remain, and my opinion that a sailing vessel could have avoided the tanker stand. This is either some serious incompetence or else someone has begun spoofing the USN navigation systems. It will be said incompetence, as the other would imperil our 'superiority'. In either case, incompetence or spoofing, someone will walk the proverbial plank for this, because sailors died for..well, for what exactly?


To me, I fall back to the 1960's and 70's - where we had 'world news' and it took 30 minutes to cover most everything of import that occurred during that day.

Now, we have CNN, FOX MSNBC, BBC, CBS, ABC, AlJazeera, etc and ad infinitum. There is only so much news. In addition, these corporations are about profits. It isn't about scooping the story, it's about getting eyeballs on the TV and the webpages. Hence you have pundits screeching at each other, because nobody can look away from a train wreck.

These same "news corps" have all but eliminated their overseas reporters to reduce cost and "maximize shareholder value". So what you get is Rueters, Lexusnexus and maybe AP stories regurgitated and then spun by the talking heads to get eyeballs on the screen. Everything is a "crisis" or "amazing" or "shocking" - bit it really isn't.Every story is run like an old radio serial, with the cliffhanger right before the commercials for impotence, incontinence, etc.

It's a complex world, but there isn't enough real news for all the cable channels to do much with - there never has been. Thus we get lots of fluff, opinion pieces, gossip, and the never-ending talking heads bleating much ado about nothing. IMO, of course...



I honestly don't need to get into a controversy with you about my reply to your original comment.

My reply was intended to be helpful.

Try looking for the text which I referred to. The reference is good.


Some notes out of Cville.

1) Kessler was an Occupy Member / Hillary supporter until last November. Somehow he wormed his way into leadership of this, mainly cause he lived in Cville, and it was a shit show. Some more AR drama: his Twitter feed had some stuff about him being a saboteur, which he blamed on taking "Ambien, Xanax, and alcohol". Either way he is not a stable personality.

2) Swastika Flag Guy, aka the ONLY guy there with his fresh out of the package Nazi flag, is a total enigma. He hasn't popped up on any of the usual boards with Reichtard associations or even AR associations. No one knows who the guy is. There's no interest on the Left in doxxing him, but they can pull SSNs from blurry pictures by torchlight. He's probably a fed plant.

3) Richard Spencer is, imho, a likely fed asset as well. He's a scion of wealth (his family is huge in agribusiness in the South), but yet there's no effort to go after his family's wealth like there is going after the 2nd shift cook at Applebees. Why is that? There's also the deplatforming of various AR luminaries tangentially or not at all connected to the Cville stuff, including Laura Southern, VDare, and JihadWatch, yet Rich Spencer with his blue checkmark (taken away at the samr time Milo's was, but then given back) tweets away unhindered.

I know people who know Spencer, and we have crossed paths before. I won't front at secret agent man here, but I know a little bit of tradecraft and Spencer is an ideal candidate to be a controlled asset. He's psychologically needy, in search of validation and a "cause". Before this took off the "AR" wad a bunch of philosophy students jerking off each other quoting obscure dead Germans.

He's separated from his wife, and now he's a celebrity surrounded by admirers and up to his ears in tradthot gash. For every Auburn there's two or three incidents like CVille or him throwing gladiator salutes at Inaugaration Day. Wherever the media is. There he is giving quotes.

The deplatforming thing really has everyone in a tizzy, but if the Fed decides the internet is a public commodity, they got no one but themselves to blame for it.

Peter AU

Washington Post Jan 7
"The DNC's new communications and research operation, to be staffed by former aides to Hillary Clinton's presidential campaign, will be one of several efforts from across the Democratic firmament to take on Trump, including the office of Senate Minority Leader Charles E. Schumer (D-N.Y.), the Center for American Progress and American Bridge."

Putin Jan 17 (Based on Russian inteligence info, or just Putin's take on the situation?)
"You know, there is a category of people who leave without saying goodbye, out of respect for the situation that has evolved, so as not to upset anything. And then there are people who keep saying goodbye but don’t leave. I believe the outgoing administration belongs to the second category."

Daily mail March 2
"'He's coming. And he's ready to roll.' former Attorney General Eric Holder said yesterday about the former president's reentry into the political scene"

"Barack Obama is turning his new home in the posh Kalorama section of the nation's capital - just two miles away from the White House - into the nerve center of the mounting insurgency against his successor, President Donald J. Trump."

And this? July 29

Bill H

Sorry, Colonel, I was trying to avoid wordiness and stopped before I made my point clear.

Yes, of course the bridge watch bears heavy responsibility. That is an elegant way to phrase it. I was responding to Oilman2's depiction of them as some kind of comic book characters.

I have spent many hours as the helmsman of a US Navy ship at sea, and after rated as an electrician, standing watch on a switchboard on the bridge. The issue is not as clear cut as it might seem.

As the privileged vessel I have a responsibility to maintain course and speed, to allow the burdened vessel to maneuver to avoid me. If I violate that responsibility then it is I who have created the hazard, because I have interfered with his ability to predict what I will do.

Once it is clear that he is not going to maneuver to avoid, then it becomes my responsibility to do so, but by then the situation has already become highly dangerous. The ships are already close and I now know that the other ship is unpredictable. I must maneuver to avoid, but since the other ship is already violating standard practice it is far from clear what the correct avoiding maneuver might be. Making things worse is the delay between a command to maneuver and the time that the maneuver actually starts to happen.

All of that requires a bridge watch which is highly trained and capable of thinking and analyzing quickly. In the case of the Fitzgerald the investigators concluded that the bridge watch was not adequately trained, leading to the CO, XO and senior noncom being relieved of their posts.

That will likely turn out to be the case with McCain as well, and it saddens me to see so many examples of a Navy gone to seed. Like an engineering department failing to refill the main propulsion reducing gearbox with lubricating oil, and then running the drive train until the gears seized up.

But there is a difference between a bridge watch that is simply insufficiently trained and "The navy has promoted idiots into positions of authority?" or "They allow video gaming on the bridge?"

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