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14 August 2017

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Nancy K

Most Ameericans do not and never will think it is okay to March carrying Nazi and KKK symbols and spouting hate rhetoric aimed at Jews, Blacks, immigrants. The U.S. is not a country of and for white men only. We are all going to have to share and play nice.

Dr.Puck

This is researchable. It is more descriptive.

I note that the idea that this war was between a Union and a newly minted foreign country, the Confederacy has taken on some new life here on STT. Before it did so I always associated it with rebel dead enders, or the ridiculous Lost Cause concept, or the groups POTUS implicitly defended yesterday in his insane presser.

Of course there is the fact of the immediate or later recognition of the Confederacy as a newly minted sovereign entity by all those foreign countries, numbering to the impressive quantity of. . .

Dr.Puck

Babak you are aware of what the average racist thinks of a person that is multi-racial?

Anyway your argument founders on the basics of contingency, since it could be redeployed to defend just about anything, given its structure; or (as experts in the informal logic would have it, its composition.)

jdledell

Bill H - If white supremacy ONLY involved speech, I could understand it better. However, it has a tendency to expand into active discrimination and that is when I have to call it out. Freedom of speech has always had limitations. Just as one cannot legally yell FIRE in a crowded theater, certain symbols of speech should be curtailed - like Nazi flags. Maybe you could agree with that if you were a Jew like me.

I can still remember, in the late 1940's as a child going to the town hall in Minnetonka, Minnesota where my father was trying to get a Building Permit to build a house for us and being greeted by a wall of protesters blocking the door with signs that said "Don't let the Dirty Jews in our Town". That kind of discrimination leaves a lifelong impression.

He avoided Real estate agents for 2 years (the ones who had spread the word previously)living in a rented house in St. Louis Park,MN(aka as Jewtown) and then hired a straw man contactor to get the permit to build a house on land bequeathed to him by a gentile uncle.

This is the genesis of my problem with white supremacy and unlimited free speech.

turcopolier

Dr. Puck

Your opinion on the sovereign status of the CSA is interesting but merely reflective of hard core Northern bigotry. The only state that recognized the Confederacy was the Papal State, then about a third of Italy. But, in fact the US treated the Confederacy as a belligerent in matters of transfer of postal service and mail and exchange of prisoners of war. There was also a certain amount of trade, especially in cotton between the parties. pl

turcopolier

jdledell

As a contrast between the two sides in the WBS, JF Davis had a Jew in his cabinet (Benjamin) as well as a Catholic (Mallory). There were also 9,000 soldiers in the CS Army who were self-declared as Jewish in War Department records now held by the US Archives. As to the building permit requested in Minnesota in the Deep North, I am not surprised. Having both Catholic Irish and ancient WASP ancestry I can tell you many such stories from the Irish side of the family. And, I remember being taken to a Jewish country club in the also in the Deep North around 1960. I was astonished that such a thing existed. pl

Nancy K

jdledell
My father also fought in WW2 and was a POW in Germany, and he also would be turning over in his grave. My husband is Jewish and remembers while living in England being called names and beaten up because he was Jewish. He emigrated to Israel when he was 16 because of how he was treated, and arrived just as the 6 Day war begin but had to lie about his age to serve.
Christian Americans who support Nazism and white supremacy are not Christian, either that or they have forgotten that the man they supposedly worship was a dark skinned Jew.

Nancy K

Of course not all whites are responsible for Charlottesville or Charleston because not all whites are KKK or white supremacists, or Nazis. If however allegiance is pledged to one of those groups than they do have shared responsibility for the outcomes.

Nancy K

The Vice President of the Confederacy was Jewish and I believe he went to live in England after the War. There were Sephardic Jews living in the South prior to the CW who had slaves.

dilbert dogbert

This might be a tactic for those who don't want to confront the new American NAZI party with violence:
https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20799833_10209480334276454_3315101315179546864_n.jpg?oh=01ee1c546844de468855c5ca49d773df&oe=59F0E2B6

Stephanie

Davis got a lot of criticism for promoting Benjamin, who was called his “court Jew.” He told his critics where he could put their criticisms. Toward the end of the war Benjamin also argued for arming and freeing the slaves.

He was a great favorite of Varina Howell Davis aka That Western Woman.

turcopolier

Nancy K

So far as I know Alexander Stephens was not Jewish. You are probably thinking of Judah Philip Benjamin who undoubtedly was. He was successively Attorney General, Secretary of War and Secretary of State in Davis's cabinet. He fled to England after the war, resumed his British nationality (born in Barbados)and became a famous British judge. pl

turcopolier

Nancy K

A Jewish lady friend of my wife who is originally from Oregon ysed to work for the ant-defamation league or B'nai Brith, on of those. She worked in the editorial branch of their publications and says that most upper-class families in the pre-war South had some of that Sephardic blood. pl

turcopolier

jdleddell

Looks like you left the italics on. pl

Sam Peralta


All

Why do the liberals conflate Confederate symbolism with slavery & racism? Why is there no nuance in discussions on the Confederacy and the war with the Union states?

It should be obvious to anyone with even a modicum of knowledge of the history that the dispute and subsequent war and especially the motivations of the protagonists were complicated. It wasn't as black & white as many claim today.

Slavery no doubt is abhorrent. However, human history is replete with instances of slavery from the Egyptians on. As Richard Sale's essay notes there's a demonic side to every human.

TimmyB

The claim that the "secession was legal" defense is what prevented treason trials after the Civil War doesn't make much sense.

First off, that defense depends upon a judge allowing a jury to hear it. Do you think the judges hearing treason trials would be from the North or the South? Obviously, the judges would be chosen by the victor, same as in all wars. So the chances are low that a Northern judge would even allow such a defense to be used.

Moreover, there are good arguments for preventing that defense. It's not as if the Confederate states sued the federal government in federal court for the right to secede. Instead, they took up arms. Thus, the right to secede isn't really an issue. Instead, the issue is whether a State's citizens have a right to take up arms against the federal government when their state has a dispute with the federal government. US courts have taken a dim view of parties in a dispute using violence to settle disputes, instead of using the court system. Frankly, I can't see any US judge allowing that defense to be heard by a jury.

But let's assume that the judge allowed that defense to be heard by the jury. Again, does anyone really think that these trials would be held in the South? That is highly unlikely. Remember that many hundreds of thousands of Northerners were drafted into the Army. A few hundred thousand died fighting. Thus, it is difficult to believe a Northern jury would free Jefferson Davis because they bought the "secession was legal" defense. Common sense says it is highly unlikely that Northern jury would decide to free Jefferson Davis after everything the North was told about the war being just and all the sacrifices made during the war.

In the highly unlikely event the trials were held in the South, the jury pool wouldn't contain people related or connected to anyone who served in the Confederate military. Instead, it the jury would be made up of exslaves, carpet baggers and Northern occupation troops. That's not a jury that would free Jefferson Davis either. Exslaves are unlikely to decide they should still be slaves because secession was legal, merely to free Jefferson Davis and others.

Thus, the claim the North was afraid of Civil War defendants would use a "secesion was legal defense" and that such a defense would work and thus throw the government into chaos is unbelievable.

Fred

Nancy K,

Does the "shared responsibility for the outcomes" include antifa, BLM and others who Trump last night labeled as the alt-left?

Lyttenburgh

"I do not believe the Antonov factory in Ukraine is closed. "

Note the date. Now - from the mouth of the Ukrainian government itself (July 19th): http://www.kmu.gov.ua/control/uk/cardnpd?docid=250157282

Later that month, the Groysman's cabinet approved the list of 1255 state enterprises, which are to be either liquidated (2/3) or privatized (1/3). Antonov included. They plan to do this by the end of the year.

Lyttenburgh

"I also recall that the fascist powers were allied with the communists until the summer of 1939-41."

"Allied", LondonBob? Care to support your claim here?

jdledell

Fred - I am not making a statement against all whites - specifically white supremacists and neo-nazis of any color. I have a lot of sympathy for whites (and others)who have been screwed over economically in this country. We need to fix that. Until we get better economic equality these kind of race skirmishes will continue as an economic zero sum game. However, until we call out those who think they are better than others because of the color of their skins or the nature of their religion, we as a country and a society will not progress like we should.

turcopolier

timmy B

The states had no need to sue the federal government on an issue of secession because exercising the option they would be outside the US federal system. what would have been the basis of the federal courts refusing to allow whatever defense an accused offered? pl

Huckleberry

White Identity Politics is here. White Identity Politics is not going away.

White Identity Politics is the inevitable consequences of

the approaching minority status of the native white population of North America

aggressive anti-white / pro-multicultural Marxism

and the failure of the Baby Boomers to leave a functioning political economy behind for their posterity.

The sooner this is understood, the better this is going to be.

Now you cannot say no one told you.

mikee

I guess that shouldn't be surprising. The IMF will get a piece of the proceeds while a few oligarchs get some rust belt industries for pennies on the hryvnia.

Fred

jdledell,

"We need to fix that. Until we get better economic equality these kind of race skirmishes will continue as an economic zero sum game."

The actions of the left and right at Charlottesville and after have everything to do with political power and nothing to do with economic equality, or more precisely equality of economic outcome. That is a notion that had noting to do with the foundation of our nation.

jdledell

Fred - I don't disagree with your point on economic vs political power. I'm trying to point out that whether it is whites or blacks if those same people who feel powerless in our country were to have a decent middle income lifestyle many would not be tempted to join white or black extremist organizations and those organizations would be smaller and less disruptive.

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