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14 August 2017

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Kooshy

I agree I oppose removal of history, regardless how bad or good it may taste today. History should be respected as a lesson, an experience and not fashion,

jdledell

All I can say is my father who fought Nazis in Europe and suffered thru the Battle of the Bulge would be turning over in his grave at the thought of Nazi flags parading thru the streets of America. Why is white supremacy acceptable? Should part of America become the new Aryan nation? Is that what they want? Going through the comments on Reddit and similar sites you can read tons of comments extolling the superiority of whites and how blacks, hispanics and jews are inferior beings that are ruining everything white Americans have built in this country.

Nazism and white supremacy are a cancer to the America, the Founding America that believes all of us are created equal. As a Jew, I have certainly experienced the hatred of white america, from my school days harassed as a kike. In my youth, my father, a WWII veteran, was not allowed to buy a house in certain towns.

Why would any Christian American support Nazism and white supremacy which defies the tenets of their religion and our American ideals. I can vividly remember one white racist telling me as a Jewish boy who was disabled by polio that I better not get married and have kids to add inferior genes to society. What did we learn in our fight against the Nazi? Nothing?

BillWade

Stephanie, after further reading I've changed my conclusion, the alt-right, as I know it and I can be wrong, is now calling it a disaster and are recommending any and all followers to disavow Richard Spencer, this Kessler guy who organized it, and especially any KKKers or nazis.

BillWade

right, it's our history, right or wrong. My very liberal wife agrees. I live in Charlotte county Fl, Lee county is to my south and there are rumblings.

ked

No stranger than a committed Italian Socialist becoming a Fascist.

John Rowan

Agree. I come from the yankee North and am horrified seeing the stupid destruction of Confederate general statues. This whole thing in Charlottesville was over Robert E. Lee. While I'm no historian, even amateur, I believe Lee was not sanguine about slavery. Also, he decided not to turn the war into a guerilla campaign which would have kept the country divided and bled the North. So Lee was, in the word's a dim-witted former President, "A uniter, not a divider." Big league.

Old Microbiologist

My wife read me a Russian article yesterday that China has imported 30,000 Ukrainians from the now closed Antonov plant ( including families) and also has imported the workers who former,y manufactured the RD-180 rocket engines. I cannot validate this but this journal has proven to be reliable in the past. If true, this is a major game changer for China. Just building the Antonov tansports is highly significant.

turcopolier

All

People are now writing to me to detail the horrors of American chattel slavery; forced labor, sexual subjugation in some cases, an absence of choice in life, etc. I am aware of all that. They need not write to tell me about it. I spent decades studying the subject. A reminder is not necessary unless the intention is intimidation. At the same time the record of the time makes it clear that race relations in the antebellum South were not an unmixed picture in which the South was simply a vast concentration camp for Blacks. No, it was a complex concentration camp for Blacks and not all White/Black relations were bitter and miserable. Some others raise again the "incontrovertible" commission of treason to the United States by the Confederates, all of them, but especially the leaders. Actually, their guilt of this particulate crime is quite controvertible and always was. ask yourself - why was no Confederate leader tried for treason? If the issue was "incontrovertible," then they should have been tried. A number of them were imprisoned like JF Davis but in the end the US government simply released him. RE Lee waited for years for the knock on the door that never came. IMO they were not tried because they made it clear that unless they were tried "in camera" they would make their defense on the basis of secession of the states having been legal and that therefore their armed support of the Confederacy had not been treason because they were no longer US citizens when that support occurred. The US Government did not want that argument made. It is clear from the US Constitution that only US citizens are legally capable of treason to the US. Foreign soldiers captured in war are not considered to be guilty or accusable of treason to the US. One should also consider the fact that the US government required the seceded states to be re-admitted to the Union during reconstruction. If they had still been US States while they were in the CSA why did they have to be re-admitted. The same is true of those who took service under the Confederate government with their states. But, no matter, I expect that I will continue to receive the same nonsensical messages in what has become a nonsensical country. http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2011/01/the-tycoon-re-lee.html pl

Bill H

"Why is white supremacy acceptable?" Because of the first amendment which your father, and mine who was also at the Bulge, fought to preserve.

I forget the source, "I despise every word that you speak, sir, but I will fight to the death to defend your right to speak them."

Lyttenburgh

Oh, not only Antonov – MotorSich as well! Now they’d have the aircraft AND the engines for the. Both of them were not just factories, but a so-called “concerns”, which outgrew from the Soviet era construction bureaus (KBs).

Globalization at action.

Stephanie

With all due respect, it seems pretty clear from the reports that in this instance, they were. Leaving aside that showing up in combat gear flourishing semiautomatics doesn't exactly convey a message of "I come in peace," apparently they started breaking up into small groups and randomly beating people. Plowing a car into a group of people whose political views you do not wholly agree with pretty much speaks for itself.

I can't imagine anyone looking at the events in Charlottesville and being pushed farther to the right, but YMMV.

A statue dedicated to ordinary Confederate soldiers just got toppled in Durham. A direct result of Charlottesville.

Stephanie

Hard to have a serious discussion with people who think Jefferson Davis is the moral equivalent of Hitler.

Stephanie

Hmm. If that is indeed happening, it opens the possibility that the disavowals are occurring for tactical reasons and not moral ones, now that Spencer and Kessler have become toxic on a national level(?)

Ishmael Zechariah

Col. Lang, SST;
Here is a non-rhetorical question. I wonder if you all could suggest any realistic, reasonably peaceful, greater than 50% probable means by which True American Patriots-TAP- (of every sex, religion and color; from North and South) can fight against the provocations of the Borg. I assume that the TAP folks lack the organization, financial and media powers of the Borgistas and are underground in government apparatus despite Trump.
To elaborate: it seems to me that the Borg is intent on getting the public to identify true patriots with the ultra-right groups. This would marginalize and disenfranchise the only group who might pose a realistic domestic threat to their dreams of world domination (globalization). Having seen islamic democratization up close and personal in Turkey-the same scenario was extant- I would not put it past the Borg to be funding some/most of these ultra-right groups as well as their opponents on the left and using their media domination to push this narrative. Their efforts in Turkey resulted in the semi-destruction of the secular state, but we are slowly recovering (look over the latest promotion lists of the TSK. Our success is by no means guaranteed but we are still here. If Russia had not intervened in Syria, the izzie-saudi-borg axis would have dominated MENA by this time, with liver eaters dancing on our graves.
Ishmael Zechariah

Dr.Puck

Here you go:

Section 3.
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

"IMO they were not tried because they made it clear that unless they were tried "in camera" they would make their defense on the basis of secession of the states having been legal and that therefore their armed support of the Confederacy had not been treason because they were no longer US citizens when that support occurred."

IMO the war is called the Civil War for an actual reason.

Anyway, I haven't read With Malice toward Some: Treason and Loyalty in the Civil War Era by William A. Blair, and I'm fairly sure you have, so there's that!

turcopolier

Dr. Puck

"IMO the war is called the Civil War for an actual reason." Yes, Northerners call it the CW so that they can feel good about invading THE confederacy. PL

Clueless Joe

It might be worth noting that most other European languages refer to the American Civil War as the Secession War - which is a bit more descriptive about what the war was about, I think.

Mark Logan

All,
At great risk of skunking up the picnic...

How it came to pass that Confederate symbols were adopted by fascists I have no clear picture. As I understand it the Confederacy stood for nearly the precise opposite. I suppose the Hindus wonder about the swastika in the same way.

Some things just happen and fairness cannot be mandated. Terrible news for true southerners, and I'll opine with confidence that if RE Lee was around to see his statue being used as a rallying point for those folks he'd have torn it down himself. The first in line to slap the colors of the Army of Northern Virginia from those hands should not have been "liberals".

Stephanie

Washington and Jefferson founded the United States and led the young country as presidents. R.E. Lee waged war against it. I think that Lee, who lived in a house surrounded by mementoes of Washington, did what he thought was right and believed he was acting in the spirit of the founders by throwing off a government that no longer represented him, but the distinction is quite clear and I don't think many will have problems understanding it.

Stephanie

Actually, that should read "who lived in a house filled with mementoes of Washington." Obviously Mr. Custis' memorabilia wasn't lying around on the lawn.

mikee

I do not believe the Antonov factory in Ukraine is closed.
From July 5th: "Air Transportation: Ukraine Makes Another Friend"

https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairmo/20170705.aspx

Fred

jdledell,

"What did we learn in our fight against the Nazi?"

Two of my family lost thier lives fighting the Nazis. We as a societly learned far more that you are giving credit for.
"I can vividly remember one white racist telling me..."
I vividly remember multiple black racists beating me in Key West High School in 1976. I wasn't the only victim of such attacks. All blacks were not collectively responsible for what those racists did then any more than than all blacks being responsible for BLM inspired killings now nor are all whites being responbile for Charlottlesville or Charleston. Thanks for the guilt trip though.

Babak Makkinejad

You are not going far enough. The Old South was the only counter weight to Puritans' Project in the United States. Once that was removed, the Imeperial Puritans got going; men like John Hay and later TDR.
Moreover, every child born to the Union of an African-American and another race exists because of Slavery; what is one to tell those children?
It is best to let the sleeping dogs lie, in my opinion.

Tel

"American electorate is fracturing along racial lines. It began with Trump"

No, no, no.

Obama was very deliberately working the racial divisiveness so it began at least 8 years before Trump.

Some of the race baiting divide-and-conquer strategies happened well before that. Minimum wage was originally designed as a tool of eugenics just to bring up an example.

LondonBob

I am seeing a lot of references to Mussolini short lived political ideology of the 1930-40s. Left-wing 1968 types like to call people ‘fascist’ long after George Orwell rightly dismissed the word as having no real meaning. I reproduce his words from ‘Politics and the English Language’: ‘The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies ‘something not desirable’. This is even more true than it was when Orwell first wrote it in 1946.

I also recall that the fascist powers were allied with the communists until the summer of 1939-41. The word 'fascist' was adopted by the Comintern instead of 'Nazism' because 'Nazism' tended to remind people of the Nazi-Soviet pact. Whatever my grandfather was fighting for from 1939-45 I doubt it was to fight fascism, I suspect like most he was fighting for the British Empire against the Germans.

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