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25 June 2017

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English Outsider


Morongobill - I didn't believe the official Khan Shaykun story when I first saw it on the BBC. It didn't ring true and there hadn't been enough time to check the details out properly before the BBC went with it. I think that was the case with the US media as well. I've also followed as far as I am able the analysis of various aspects of the official story on the Colonel's site and still believe that that official Khan Shaykun story was fake.

Nevertheless I'd be uneasy to see the transcript you refer to used as exhibit A of the rebuttal. There are discontinuities of style and focus throughout the transcript as given to us. As here:-

" We are likely to get our asses kicked by the Russians. Fucking dangerous. Where are the godamn adults? The failure of the chain of command to tell the President the truth, whether he wants to hear it or not, will go down in history as one of our worst moments."

Do people switch from urgent colloquial to measured statement like that in such a situation? I'm not qualified to say because I don't have the relevant background, but many similarly unqualified people would dismiss the transcript on the grounds of such discontinuities alone. In fact no one I have shown the transcript to has found it convincing for just that reason. I'd prefer to see a more secure provenance for the transcript before seeing it put forward as evidence or part of the evidence.

On another point there are suggestions, in this case and in others,(*) of collusion between NATO countries and the Jihadis in such incidents. I would ask 1, is this ever substantiated and 2, if so, does that collusion merely involve making use of the incident for PR purposes or does it extend to some degree of collusion in setting the incident up?


* for example Lueder's ZDF interview 5th April 2017 (from 14 mins). I have no transcript of this interview but Lueders is strongly suggesting Turkish collusion in the Ghouta incident:-

https://www.zdf.de/gesellschaft/markus-lanz/markus-lanz-vom-5-april-2017-100.html

ToivoS

Here's a little development on Sy Hersh's article. I just googled 'symour hersh news' and the top hit and featured article was to Bellingcat denouncing Hersh and his article. An hour ago that was the only hit but now the Welt piece is number 3.

VietnamVet

Colonel,

Having served in the Army and the lower rungs of the federal technocracy, Sy Hersh’s reporting rings true. The conversation between the American soldier and security advisor also if it is an edited sigint intercept.

The USA arms Islamists to destabilize Syria at the same time as it is trying to defeat the Islamic State. The Cold War with Russia has restarted. The President gets his information from Fox News and cannot be swayed by the facts or alternatively he doesn’t trust the intelligence community since it and the media are trying to force him to resign. None of this reported by corporate media.

This all started with the end of conscription and throwing working America under the bus. To fight the wars the Atlantic Alliance has had to rely on volunteers, contractors and proxy Islamist and neo-Nazi forces. What is best for the nations’ citizens is of no concern.

It is frightening. America has devolved into a society that grabs anything that feeds its addictions and is reverting to its tribal myths. Rich western nationalists and globalists are fighting each other over who controls the looting. Politicians are divorced from reality and serve only their paymasters.

I can see why the Kremlin is trying to do an intervention. The problem is when the American Empire hits the bottom it is likely to take out the rest of mankind rather than cure itself.

BrotherJoe

In the heading to the article WELT refers to it as a "chat protocol".
I don't know what this means exactly. Could it be that the conversation
was pieced together from a series of instant messages? If that is the case then what seems like rather stilted language may be the result of
interpolation by the editors at WELT, or by Hersh himself.

J

http://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Essay_-_Did_the_US_Military_Plan_a_Nuclear_First_Strike_for_1963.html


http://thesaker.is/the-coup-then-and-now-the-enemies-of-humanity-try-to-give-trump-the-jfk-treatment/

turcopolier

richardstevenshack

The level of your conceit is impressive. pl

BraveNewWorld

While Hersh's main article smells and feels right to me, I have to admit this "conversation" doesn't. It would help if we knew what was meant by "a solder" and a "Security-Adviser". For the former at least rank would help. For the later are we talking some one in the WH, some one in the NSC or some one in a think tank?

Some of the conversation feels made up to me to spin a story real or imagined.

These two lines in particular don't ring true to me.

"AS: I guess it really didn't matter whether we elected Clinton or Trump. Fuck.

AS: No one is talking about the entire reason we're in Iraq and Syria in the first place. That mission is fucked now. "

It isn't that I can't imagine two people having that conversation. It has been had 1000 times here. I have a much harder time seeing two active service members having that conversation over a recorded channel in the course of carrying out their duties. I would appreciate it if some one with real IC experience could give their opinion.

raven

"Stovepiping (also stove piping) is a metaphorical term which recalls a stovepipe's function as an isolated vertical conduit, and has been used, in the context of intelligence, to describe several ways in which raw intelligence information may be presented without proper context. It is a system created to solve a specific problem. The lack of context may be due to the specialized nature, or security requirements, of a particular intelligence collection technology. It also has limited focus and data within is not easily shared. Alternatively, the lack of context may come from a particular group, in the national policy structure, selectively presenting only that information that supports certain conclusions. The term is typically used in the health care system. An example would be how money funded for research is not evenly allocated, but instead goes toward one specific ailment remedy.[1]"

wisedupearly

So in effect Trump is now seen as the complete puppet. All you need is some PR scary "photos" and the suggestion that he (Trump) would be just like Obama if he does not do whatever you want.

turcopolier

bravenewworld

"this "conversation" doesn't." I agree. The unrelenting vulgarity in itself is inauthentic to what a conversation between a senior officer and a SA would be like. pl

Peter AU

As noted above, CW attack was most likely pre filmed at anther location prior to the strike with the purpose of trying to get the US coalition to attack Syria.
Defused with a cruise missile fireworks display that achieved nothing other than gaining Tillerson a meeting with Putin, and Lavrov a meeting with Trump. Even then Trump was accused of passing classified secrets to the "Russians".

Just fools luck or Trump aware from the instant it happened that the CW attack was a false flag? Whichever, the cruise missile strike instantly destroyed the purpose of the false flag attack.

wisedupearly

The Borg is determined to bury all "sane people" as well.
Entered the search words "Pat Lang Sic Semper Tyrannis Syria" into goggle news and none of the articles here show up.
What is shown are references to here by other sites.
Maybe we need more people to access this site through google.
Would the sheer number of views force the Borg to acknowledge this reality?

wisedupearly

Seymour Hersh again
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2003/10/27/the-stovepipe

Basically a neocon structure that selected raw intel of dubious provenance (aka Curveball) that supported the neocon lie of Iraq WMD and passed it directly to Bolton and the WH without the usual validation. They knew that Bush wanted "proof of WMD" to justify they stovepiped him and Judith Miller.
Stovepipes are useless with Trump. All you need are whitehat videos of crying children.

Eric Newhill

wisedup,
Sure. Maybe a little for now. However, he got a little breathing room. A chance to regroup. That's better than getting impeached by Borgists from both houses in the midst of Russian collusion media campaign hysteria. The next guy would understand that he is intended to dance the Borg's strings and he'd be dancing away on day one.

One would certainly hope that the Russians were made to understand what was done and why.

Peter in Toronto

That's an excellent break-down of the scenario as it played out in April, and I largely agree.

What I find most stunning, is the absolute control the Borg has in deploying the mainstream media purveyors to deliver their version of events. How is it that they can enforce a COMPLETELY uniform narrative across virtually ALL of the dissemination channels, spanning continents, nations, languages.. etc.?

How can we explain the exclusion of any dissenting opinions on such matters?

Peter in Toronto

I wonder what AIPAC, or any of their tentacles in the UK, held over the heads of the editors at the LRB?

Jackrabbit

I think Hersh has done a disservice by accepting what he was told at face value. We are led to believe that Trump is simply unfit for office. Yet Trump's missile attack went against Trump's own advice to Obama in 2013 (he tweeted that Obama should NOT bomb Syria) as well as Trump's 'America First' campaign promises.

The explanation offered by Hersh (or Hersh's source) for Trump's stubborn determination to bomb is essentially that Trump is inexperienced and temperamentally unfit for the office. This conveniently plays into MSM narratives as well as Nixonian madman theory. These, together, make Trump into something of a blunt instrument that can be discarded when he goes too far.

In particular, Hersh ignores the statement: "... I guess it didn’t matter whether we elected Clinton or Trump." This statement raises a host of questions that bear greater scrutiny: Is Trump a faux populist like Obama was? Did Trump PLAN to bomb Syria all along? Was the 2016 election completely rigged (Sanders as Clinton sheepdog, Trump as Clinton protege)?

Ex-PFC Chuck

The denunciation by Belling Cat indicates it's likely accuracy.

Imagine

Chat is a cross between real-time conversational email and texting, typically conducted on a terminal not cell-phone. Because it takes a while to type a sentence, exchanges are normally more telegraphic than phone conversations. I thought this was a phone conversation at first, and so didn't like it because it was too on-the-nose; but it totally flows as a chat conversation.

Not pieced together; bidirectional text conversation scrolls in real time as you type. But, like this blog, you have to be succinct, plus clear w emotions. Other person is sitting on other side watching you type, waiting for you to finish your thought. Channel determines style.

Imagine

Typed chat conversations are routinely recorded, even in the business support arena, "for training purposes" [= security].

Imagine

Agree that the real news is how did the White Helmets learn about the strike far enough ahead of time so as to prepare an effective false-flag presentation? And how did Haley pick up on it so fast?

Yeah, Right

ToivoS, the Bellingcat "rebuttal" of Hersh's article is an outrageous example of misdirection.

Higgins goes into some length summarizing what Hersh is reporting from his American sources, but then his "rebuttal" begins thus: "At this point it’s worth taking a look at the claims the Syrian and Russian governments made"...

Helllooooooooooo.

The central issue in Hersh's article isn't what the Syrians and Russians were saying When The Shit First Hit The Fan, but is instead about what Hersh's AMERICAN sources are telling him now.

Example: Hersh's AMERICAN sources tell him that they were informed before the event that the Syrians were going to bomb this place, why they wanted to bomb it, and how they intended to blow it to smithereens.

Now, is that true? Or is that a fiction?

Example: Hersh's AMERICAN sources tell him that a USAF Bomb Damage Assessment (BDA) was prepared after the attack, and that assessment determined that a 500lb HE bomb was dropped on that building.

Now, is that true? Or is that a fiction?

In both cases the answer is the same: Higgins simply doesn't want to go there.

He doesn't want to ask, because he has a vested interest in not knowing the answer.

Green Zone Café

It's always been about securing the Israeli "flank" by neutralizing Syria, isolating Hezbollah before bombing Iran.

Kunuri

Here is the opinion of someone in the movie business, this sounds like a pre ordered screenplay of an infamous event, trying to pack up as much information and background story into a dialogue. It is very convoluted, and it is noticeable that the parties are not responding to each other, but addressing the audience.

pmr9

Publius Tacitus

Can you clarify your statement about a strike southwest of Khan Sheikhoun? The three smoke plumes are all located in the town. It's possible of course that these were produced by IEDs on the ground, as there is no video evidence of an aircraft. The alleged flight track of a Syrian jet provided by the US shows it passing south of the town at this time. The only air strike that all sources (R+6, images, opposition) agree on is the one at about noon on the quarry / cave complex at the eastern edge of town.

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