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23 May 2017

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optimax

Nancy K.

Don't worry, I've been kicked off twice. Tyler holds the record and we're both still here.

Karl Kolchak

Eh...the stock market is booming and "The Mukhtar" is now giving the Republicans & neocons the budget cuts and additional military spending they crave. No way Trump is going to be impeached as long as that holds true. The Democrats don't even really want him impeached, as they would rather have him to run against in 2018 than to have to come up with (gulp!) actual policies.

mauisurfer

Paul Craig Roberts writes:

Israel wants the water resources of southern Lebanon, but cannot get them, despite twice sending in the Israeli Army, because of the Lebanese Hezbollah militia, which is supplied by Syria and Iran. This is why Syria and Iran are on Washington’s hit list. Washington serves the military/security complex, Wall Street and the over-sized US banks, and Israel.

there is a lot more here

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2017/05/23/truth-has-become-un-american/

DH

In the last thread Liza posted a link to MK Bhadrakumar who held the view Trump and Tillerson went light on Iran:

"...He was obliged to show gratitude to his Saudi hosts who propose to spend $350 billion in the US economy that would create hundreds of thousands of new jobs for the American people. On the other hand, he was expected to condemn and pillory what is, arguably, the one and only democratic country in the Persian Gulf – Iran.

Trump ended up saying the irreducible minimum regarding Iran:

But no discussion of stamping out this (terrorism) threat would be complete without mentioning the government that gives terrorists all three-safe harbor, financial backing, and the social standing needed for recruitment. It is a regime that is responsible for so much instability in the region. I am speaking of course of Iran. From Lebanon to Iraq to Yemen, Iran funds, arms, and trains terrorists, militias, and other extremist groups that spread destruction and chaos across the region. For decades, Iran has fueled the fires of sectarian conflict and terror.

It is a government that speaks openly of mass murder, vowing the destruction of Israel, death to America, and ruin for many leaders and nations in this room. Among Iran’s most tragic and destabilizing interventions have been in Syria. Bolstered by Iran, Assad has committed unspeakable crimes…The Iranian regime’s longest-suffering victims are its own people. Iran has a rich history and culture, but the people of Iran have endured hardship and despair under their leaders’ reckless pursuit of conflict and terror.

Until the Iranian regime is willing to be a partner for peace, all nations of conscience must work together to isolate Iran, deny it funding for terrorism, and pray for the day when the Iranian people have the just and righteous government they deserve. (Transcript)

At the end of the day, Trump settled for a policy to “isolate” Iran and to “pray for the day” when Iran will be an agreeable partner. There was no itch to confront Iran or attack Iran."
http://blogs.rediff.com/mkbhadrakumar/2017/05/22/trumps-saudi-visit-wasnt-about-islam-or-iran-its-about-america-first/

doug

It was speculated here some time back the DJT was not aware he had the power to declassify at will. He recently pointed out he had just that. As the pressure intensifies, he may use it. OTOH, if he doesn't it will be telling.

Right now the democrats are working overtime with the media to determine the optimal strategy. Not to remove him per se, but to milk as much as possible out of Watergate 2.0 for purposes of the 2018 midterms.

confusedponderer

Fred,
"Accusation is guilt?"

You write that as if it is something new to you. Of course, it is violating all ideas of a fair trial, but that written: It isn't new. It is just degenerate and invites to abuse of power.

In Turkey, an American Turkey who works for the NASA has been arrested as, of course, a ... conspirator ... spy, and the Turks have used a single bill of dollar found in his home as a proof of corruption and a ... CIA or something like that ... conspiracy. That's of course utterly absurd, but that doesn't help the arrested man: He is in jail since 9 months, unlikely to be let our soon. He is there for about nothing but arrestor paranoia, perhaps also an arrestee number to be met.

http://www.houstonpress.com/news/nasa-johnson-space-center-scientist-detained-in-turkey-over-single-american-dollar-bill-9299043

With the NASA man, the turks have no proof for anything, they just have the accusation of whatever, and that keeps the man in jail, whyever.

But whatever an whyever are important actually. The NASA man even has to be accused openly of, say, a ... telekinesis ... conspiracy ... against Erdogan or something like that. Why telekinesis ... conspiracy ... against Erdogan?

Well, telekinesis ... conspiracy ... against Erdogan because Erdogan's head advisor Bulut has the brilliant theory that foreign, evil powers try to kill Erdogan with telekinesis, and that the coup against him was also started by such powers, of course, with telekinesis. Oh yes, his theory is that the Gezi park protests against Erogan were started by ... ghasp ... the german airline Lufthansa, probably also by telekinesis. Doesn't make that a lot of sense?

Of course it doesn't. To be blunt: The man is of course utterly nutty, but he is nutty in a helpful way, for Erdogan at least.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jul/13/erdogan-turkey-protests-telekinesis-conspiracy-theories

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/turkish-president-erdogan-appoints-aide-who-believes-murder-attempts-by-telekinesis-economic-1463347

Of course, no one, and that includes the MIT, not even with torture, can possibly prove accusations like to engage in telekinesis or the like. But that is seen as an advantage for the accusers: No longer their governing is being slowed down by courts, judges, fair trials, logic or evidence and proof.

That advantage is IMO the reason why his more absurd ideas have gotten Bulut, say, not access to an asylum but instead got him a fixed job in the government as a chief advisor.

That nothing of his telekninesis or the like theories is possibly provable or disprovable is the key advantage here - at least for an increasingly authoritarian government. It also means that in holy Erdoganland nowadays ACCUSATION IS GUILT when the government wants you to be jailed in, for whatever reason, real or phantastic.

If the turks reintroduce death penalty this may lead to superly efficient 5 minutes joke trials (no more stress due to proof, fair trial and the like) and a death verdict. This would then make the difference between a vile, common street murder and the honourable execution of ... a vile, common ... telekinesis criminal.

LeaNder

Babak, (semi-ironic)

you forget the vision of the "Third Templers". They are pretty busy to built tunnels slowly approaching the Al-Aqsa Mosque. Now there seems to be this story, not sure if I recall it correctly. At one point in time only one or two stones have to be moved and the whole mosque comes tumbling down. And io and behold the Third Temple miraculously descents from heaven. With this event the light unto nations returns peace to the whole universe.

But those may be the Zelots only of course. The more solidly religiously grounded have updated matters. They prefer to trust architects that are busy with or have already finished their plans. From their perspective there is a little space for compromise. Like moving Al Aqsa a little further off? The Muslim only have to admit their mistake to have been misguided by choosing exactly that spot for Muhammad's ascent to heaven, exactly the spot the Almighty had reserved for the the temple since times immemorial. ...

In other words exile was only a haunting period of blows and strokes in which the exiled had to prove worthy of the covenant. They may have proven this with their return. But see above, semi-ironic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant_(biblical)#Mosaic_covenant

Forward:

Jewish Mystics Hope Trump’s Israel Visit Might ‘Raise The Temple’
Sam Kestenbaum
Read more: http://forward.com/news/372256/for-jewish-mystics-trumps-israel-visit-part-of-messianic-process/

versus

Turkey’s Erdogan Starts New Temple Mount, Jerusalem Blood Libel
By Hana Levi Julian - 13 Iyyar 5777 – May 8, 2017

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/eye-on-palestine/turkeys-erdogan-starts-new-temple-mount-jerusalem-blood-libel/2017/05/08/

Eric Newhill

Laura,
Oh come now. I know exactly what Tyler is saying and so do you all. You're just pretending you don't in lawyerly fashion. Because you're guilty of what Tyler says you are.

Of course you're not cool with children being blown up. However, you are also not cool with the measures that would need to be taken to prevent Islamic terrorists from carrying out such attacks; measures like banning Islamic immigration, targeting mosques for surveillance, etc.

All the call from the same people that hate Trump to "Carry on and go about our business" have the aura of defeatism about them. Like there's nothing that can be done. Muslims want to immigrate? Well we can't stop them. So just let the invasion happen because social justice and virtue signaling.

Fredw

Origin doesn't matter. The point is that we have enemies, they are real, and they are not necessarily stupid or incompetent. Think about it from the Iranian point of view. Why would they not help the Shia militias with this? And why are we blaming them for pursuing their own self-interest. Would we have done differently? Really? (Think stingers.)

sillybill

All,
Impeachment does not imply automatic removal from office - remember Bill Clinton. I think most of the Democrats want to use this to keep the GOP and Trump administration permanently off balance. The real threat of replacement by Pence is from the Republicans.

turcopolier

sillybill

You have not been paying attention. I have repeatedly said that impeachment would be followed by trial in the senate. pl

turcopolier

optimax

Yes, you have to really special to be permanently banned but there are some. pl

Babak Makkinejad

I am not saying anything profound; those targeted by the Western Fortress have two things in common: they are not Sunni Muslims and they are devoted to Ali.

Babak Makkinejad

Recently I heard of this Bedu who lives somewhere in the desert in Saudi Arabia. He has his herds of sheep and goats and camels, his four wives, and considers himself a very excellent Muslim.

I imagine he would fully expect to go to Paradise.

He recalled to my mind a very public conversation between a traditionalist mullah and Ayatollah Khomeini which ended by Khomeini saying: "The way you speak, we all should go live in tents."

Perhaps, for many Muslims, Shia or Sunni, Islam is a religion that can only be lived and practiced fully if one lives in a tent in a pastoral setting.

In fact, there are plenty of deserts in the world - some even in US - that could enable a few tens of millions of Muslims to live in those proverbial tents to their hearts' content.

What should the remaining billion Muslims do?

I am suggesting to you that the only realistic path forward for Muslims is one articulated by the small group of revolutionary Muslims around Ayatollah Khomeini and in the ideas and ideals of the Islamic Republic of Iran.

Babak Makkinejad

Western people have a religion; three gods of Liberty, Progress and the Cult of Shoah.

They live in the strait-jacket of the Enlightenment Tradition's anti-clericalism and are thus fully incapable of grasping reality of the world when it deviates from what they expect.

In that, they are not very different than doctrinaire Muslims that I have met; full of pious incantations and epithets that no longer correspond - in any meaningful way - to the actual experiences of actual human beings.

Babak Makkinejad

He murdered 2000 Egyptians in a single day.

Why is that you guys in the West, who in any day are so caring about the life of small little bambies of this world, always find admirable blood-thirsty tyrants like Stalin, or Mao - and now Sisi?

What gives?

tim s

Taking a step back from a bleeding heart liberal view, it is easy to see that if a community has nothing left but government subsidies, they may be worse off than without. Look at the decaying inner cities and tell me that they are better off after all of these decades with welfare, etc.

Dems only back these programs to keep the hands warm enough to pull the blue lever every few years (if they bother), and maybe keep the prisons full.

Nancy K

Am I permanently banned?

turcopolier

Nancy K

No, but you are encouragde to not talk down to people. pl

Babak Makkinejad

OK, thanks Elaine for correcting me.

Babak Makkinejad

Shia had a political platform; under the Bhuids, the Fatimids, and Safavids.

In fact, the more they abandoned their core beliefs in search of acceptance the weaker they became.

Nancy K

Thank you.

Jack

Sanders won my county in the Democrat primary. However, when it became apparent that the primary was being rigged and Donna Brazile was feeding Hillary debate questions, neither Sanders nor the Democrat primary voters called foul and made a big deal to reverse the bias. As NancyK here noted, she voted for Hillary in the primary because she believed Hillary would win in the general. I know many Hillary voters who voted on the basis of that logic.

OTOH, GOP primary voters in many electoral districts have for some election cycles been willing to tolerate election losses by supporting non-establishment candidates. Many "Tea Party" types won primaries as a result. This willingness to buck the establishment is why Trump won. There's got to be a reason why the GOP, even with an unruly primary voter, has continued to win more state houses and legislatures even under Obama's 2 terms.

I'm a registered independent and for decades did not vote for the candidate of the duopoly for president. I broke with that tradition last year, casting my ballot for Trump. If Sanders were the Democrat nominee I very well may have voted for him.

Valissa

On the role of the senate in impeachment https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/briefing/Senate_Impeachment_Role.htm
The United States Constitution provides that the House of Representatives "shall have the sole Power of Impeachment" (Article I, section 2) and that "the Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments .... [but] no person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two-thirds of the Members present" (Article I, section 3). The president, vice president, and all civil officers of the United States are subject to impeachment.

The concept of impeachment originated in England and was adopted by many of the American colonial governments and state constitutions. At the Constitutional Convention in 1787, the framers considered several possibilities before deciding that the Senate should try impeachments.

Impeachment is a very serious affair. This power of Congress is the ultimate weapon against officials of the federal government, and is a fundamental component of the constitutional system of “checks and balances.” In impeachment proceedings, the House of Representatives charges an official by approving, by majority vote, articles of impeachment. A committee of representatives, called “managers,” acts as prosecutors before the Senate. The Senate Chamber serves as the courtroom. The Senate becomes jury and judge, except in the case of presidential impeachment trials when the chief justice of the United States presides. The Constitution requires a two-thirds vote of the Senate to convict, and the penalty for an impeached official is removal from office. In some cases, disqualification from holding future offices is also imposed. There is no appeal.
-------------------

With two-thirds of the senate required to impeach Trump, that will not be easy to do.

The article lists the 19 times that the senate has had an impeachment trial.

Fred

FredW,

You don't like Reagan National Airport operating or that it is named after Reagan? McVeigh and Kaczynski did not take their actions based on religious belief. The Libyan immigrants, well maybe that just shows that bad immigration policy can get you or your kids killed twenty years later.

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