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20 May 2017

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jonst

First Richard, Shamir was, as he usually was, right about spotting weakness. What would he say today? As to the penetration of Mossad, well, yeah. Sure. Why not....they penetrated the entire *Demographic* of Israel. So why not various institutions?

mauisurfer

was the information (that trump gave russia) from israel? or was it from jordan?

doug

Anyone paying attention would know that Israel has pretty close ties to Russia during the rise of the Russian oligarchs. They are still close. Israel and Russia have a visa waiver program. The US and Israel does not.

ToivoS

The Jonathan Pollard case revealed another aspect of those Soviet "spies" who had penetrated the Israeli government. The Israelis traded US secrets stolen by Pollard to the Soviets in exchange for Russian Jews. The "spies" in these negotiations were almost certainly officials of the Israeli government.

Here is a follow up story to the Israeli Boris Krasny who apparently "spied" for the Soviets written by Richard Silverstein:

https://www.richardsilverstein.com/2017/02/25/israeli-supreme-court-sides-security-apparatus-corporate-elite-shields-former-soviet-spy/

MRW

This is just one small report from Richard Sale’s magnificent oeuvre. In my view, Richard Sale was the greatest all-time intelligence reporter of the 20th C. Period. Non-pareil. Bar none.

And I’ve been reading him since pre-internet days (UPI starting in the 80s, etc, hell, I kept a 3” Smead legal ‘pocket’ of his clips in my apt in Manhattan; I wanted to appear brilliant at cocktail and dinner parties). It wasn’t just his “scoop” ability, as Sy Hersh opined, it was his ability to glean from important sources the critical bits—on goddam deadline, no less—and then see through the obfuscation and filigree to put the bits into a universal perspective that future historians will rely upon as the insight of a unique man with the razor-sharp perspective and unflagging values few of his colleagues would ever attain; moreover, few ever knew they needed to. In addition to knowing how to write himself out a paper bag.

It is a testament to this site that Richard Sale is a regular. And, it tells me heaps about the quality of mind of the Colonel that this is his buddy.

Believe me when I say we have reporting royalty gracing us with his appearance here.

turcopolier

mauisurfer

Why are you still here? Is this an ageist thing? You expect me to forget? it does not really matter where the US got the information. None of these countries has a significant intelligence capability, including the Israelis. At least 80% of the intelligence Israel has is given to them by the US. they have nowhere else to go. We are the only show in town except for the boutique items that that they and the others specialize in. pl

jonst

Just curious, why would that matter anyway?

mauisurfer

It is comforting to think that Israel has such limited intelligence capability as you describe. How then did
100 kilograms (or was it 345 kg?)of bomb-grade uranium get from NUMEC in Apollo, Pennsylvania to Israel from 1959 to 1977?

turcopolier

mauisurfer

If you are going to try to be snide about the intelligence business you need to learn a few basics about it. "Intelligence" is about information. Illegally obtaining uranium is about "covert action." The latter thing has nothing to do with information. It has to do with the employment of a Fifth Column that is willing to help you steal uranium and which is trusted as citizens of the country from which the uranium is being stolen. Transferring intelligence information to Israel is a major activity of the US IC. It takes place daily on a large scale. I was head of US/Israeli intelligence liaison between DoD and the IDF General Staff for seven long years. Generally, we give them the crown jewels and they give us trash. They also deliberately lie about the relationship to their partisans in the US. On several occasions members of Congress confronted me with items of information which they said the Israelis had given them and asked why I did not know that since the Israelis knew it. In fact we had passed this information TO te Israelis. pl

LeaNder

MRW, I haven't quite managed to wrap my head around your brave new American monetary universe, admittedly, but this sounds like a déjà vu or read for that matter.

In any case, appreciated. ;)

Richard Sale

jonst,

From the beginning of its founding as a state, Israel was the recipient of vast amounts of U.S. aid - military aircraft radar systems, electronic warfare systems, armor, etc. The U.S. played a major part in the development of Israel’s nukes.
I think the Pollard case shook up U.S officials because Israel had always assured us that Israel’s interests were identical to America’s. No sane person believed this, but if you heard it often enough you came to think it true, at least in part.
The Pollard case startled U.S. spooks because they realized with anguish that Israel had its own asset in the U.S. who was spying for them. I was a good friend of Caspar Weinberger and when I spoke to him about Pollard, he almost foamed at the mouth, his rage was that profound. It soon became clear that Israel recognized no other judge of its behavior but itself, and it obeyed no law except its own interests. It pursued them with grim ferocity, like America. You had to be strong to conquer, but it helped if you were moderate in your victory. In other words, ambition founded the plan of conquest, but after it was executed, moderation helped to soothe the losers. The Israel Palestinian wars proved the fallacy of that. At least in theory. Israel was addicted to conquest. It though it the crowing the achievement of your exertions, but it had to be limited because the abuse of force would destroy the advantages it brought. Alexander the Great thought that petty thieves should be put to death while altars were erected to honor great ones. Most countries including America are examples of this.
A great French thinker once warned you did not pillage, plunder, force, trouble, despoil, vex, oppress ruin and destroy either the people or area after a conquest, advice that most nations ignore.

Richard Sale

jonst

Well, I don't know where to start my reply, other than to thank for both your essay, and your gracious reply. But here goes..

I guess, growing up in NYC, and other parts of the metropolitan area, gave me a fast and certain lesson re who and what the Jews were putting first, namely, the survival of the Jewish people, as personified by the Jewish State. All you had to do was walk the streets of NYC, or Newark, or Elizabeth, hang out in bakeries, and delis, not the New School, and listen, to know which way the wind was blowing. There was visceral rage, in the wake of WWII, and a ruthless determination to avoid the mistakes of the past. How ANY American official could not see--feel-- this is beyond me. No matter how many times they heard the opposite. And frankly, I am unaware of a time Israel has ever acted in a significant strategic manner as an Ally of ours. Shlomo Ben Ami, in his excellent book, Scars of War, Wounds of Peace: The Israeli–Arab Tragedy makes a clear connection between the 1967 victory, and the rise of a particular zealous, fundamental, religious ferocity and sense of certainty that came to dominate (Begin) in the mid 70s. Surely some one as professed to be as wise as Cap the Knife had to know this. And know of its implications. I think people in DC did not know things because it was in their interests NOT to know. See Sen Percy...

The Israelis, as you know better than I, are not big on "great French Thinkers', at times, AKA, Enlightenment Thinkers. They are big on tribal dynamics. They will take defense in depth (all things relative, of course) over moderation.

mauisurfer

Shortly before he died in February 2004, Adm. Moorer strongly appealed for the truth to be brought out and pointed directly at what he saw as the main obstacle: “I’ve never seen a President … stand up to Israel. … If the American people understood what a grip these people have on our government, they would rise up in arms.”

Echoing Moorer, former U.S. Ambassador Edward Peck, who served many years in the Middle East, condemned Washington’s attitude toward Israel as “obsequious, unctuous subservience … at the cost of the lives and morale of our own service members and their families.”

different clue

mauisurfer,

I think Admiral Moorer said that well before 2004. I remember reading that quote in Congressman Paul Findlay's book They Dare To Speak Out, which was published in 1983.

Imagine

--Israel purportedly has a direct uncombed feed of everything the NSA gathers.
Russia probably has moles left over in Israeli intelligence.
Therefore, Russia may be getting at least a partial feed of everything the NSA grabs.
(This presumably involves proprietary business conversations, plus unencrypted gov't ones.) Universal surveillance is unethical, violates the Fourth Amendment, and is detrimental to the spirit and health of America.

--Mossad spies, the "Dancing Israelis", were seen filming the 9/11 attacks and celebrating. The FBI caught them, but was told to quietly deport them and let them go. No satisfactory explanation of either event has ever been offered.

LeaNder

And frankly, I am unaware of a time Israel has ever acted in a significant strategic manner as an Ally of ours. Shlomo Ben Ami, in his excellent book, Scars of War, Wounds of Peace: The Israeli–Arab Tragedy

there are a numerous authors that deserve attention, jonst. Avi Shlaim, of course. My "friend" Norman Finkelstein, and surely more recently to name just a few: Shira Robinson

http://www.sup.org/books/title/?id=21669

If you spent too much time on the inner academic struggles and the venom, you surely need distance to the topic. At least, I did.

Richard Sale

It was an arranged theft approved by the highest circles of the U.S.government. An intelligence source of mine who had been a tour of the underground nuclear facilities at Dimon was told that by Israeli officials.

Richard Sale

turcopolier

Richard sale

And he believed the Israelis? pl

mauisurfer

i think he said it in 1993
he died in 2004

Thomas

"Therefore, Russia may be getting at least a partial feed of everything the NSA grabs."

And they can use that information to compare it with all the goodies gathered via an ill-disciplined lazy federal official's bathroom server.

mauisurfer

new book by Philip Nelson titled: Remember the Liberty: Almost Sunk by Treason on the High Seas

sorry for confusions about dates, don't know when Moorer said it without looking it up
but he died in 2004

turcopolier

mauisurfer

I am one of those who read the NSA generated voice intercepts acquired during the Liberty attack. Look in the SST archives. pl

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