Ghouta redux? Was this attack real?

The MSM is filled with "news" of a supposed Syrian Government chemical warfare attack in Idlib Province.  All of the reporting is sourced to SOHR (one rebel supporter in a basement office in Coventry, England) and rebel media in Idlib Province.  How do we know this really happened?  The rebels have proven themselves extremely capable of staging propaganda pageants and they do have chemical weapons.  They make them in Syria.  These are not ignorant people.  The "White Helmets" were a fraud.  This is probably another, but the Borg loves the noise, especially the hysterics on CNN and MSNBC.

These AQ connected rebels in Idlib have been conducting an offensive in northern Hama.  This has been turned back and the rebels are being driven out of Hama in the direction of Idlib having lost many men.  As someone observed here the standard rebel reaction to severe adversity is to claim a chemical attack.  pl

Comments

[Yeah, Right]

I agree that Trump can see the pit that is in front of him, and I agree that if he has the slightest common-sense then he will not allow himself to be pushed into that pit.

What I am suggesting is that he has a very easy way of avoiding that fate i.e. he need only tweet that he has been told that this was a false-flag.

It doesn't matter if he fingers ISIS as being responsible, or whether he chooses to finger AQ instead, or if he just leaves it as the every-nebulous "rebels".

It makes no difference because he isn't going to have to back up his tweet with evidence, any more than he has needed to substantiate any of his countless other tweets.

That's the genius of the man: his use of twitter confounds all the accepted notions of what a politician can - and can't - get away with.

[turcopolier]

Yeah, Right

You, like other poor losers are obsessed with Trump's lack of virtue, but strangely blind to the frailties of others, HRC for example. I don't give damn about any of that. I don't care about US politics. I am interested in avoiding a war with Russia. pl

[Old Microbiologist]

I keep finding it extremely telling that no real data is ever forthcoming. I spent time in several combat laboratories tasked with field detection and we had a portable Gas Chromatography-Mass Spectroscopy for field testing for chemical agents. From that you get a very rapid but highly precise fingerprint (in a real sense it is that precise and every chemical has impurities and ratios that are extremely characteristic) of the agent used (including constituent parts) and based on libraries of samples collected from every chemical weapon depot (yes it exists) you can rapidly tell where it was made assuming it was a bonafide chemical weapon agent. Home brewed stuff (this is more likely here assuming it exists at all) can be analyzed for its constituents and again these are well characterized and can be traced by their molecular signature to the raw chemical manufacturer. Since 9/11 these libraries have been built at great expense and a lot of effort (your tax dollars at work). We never see these data which I find rather shocking given how much effort has gone into creating these libraries in the first place. Field test results are completed in less than 4 hours (and are definitive enough to tell exactly what was used) and detailed analysis can be completed in days (not weeks or months or even years now). But, I believe we are still waiting for the real data from the Ghouta attacks so I am of the opinion either it is negative data, shows the "wrong" guys made it, it was made from constituents manufactured by allies (our the US), or some other nefarious reason. The data exists and someone has it but there seems to be no real interest in actually seeing the data. So, until someone publishes the results then it is pure speculation about anything at all. In other words complete BS.

[ISL]

A. Pols,

IMO, the Tell is the avoidance of providing arguments and facts to address a number of questions raised by SST community members, but simply a repetition of an assertion - i.e., attempting to program a viewpoint rather than convince. To me this suggests a non-casual troll.

Such approaches are useful for selling cars to the public, but not to the SST level of discourse.

[LeaNder]

Home brewed stuff (this is more likely here assuming it exists at all) can be analyzed for its constituents and again these are well characterized and can be traced by their molecular signature to the raw chemical manufacturer.

OM, among many other things in the larger post 9/11 universe of web chattering that drew my attention, you may well be familiar with the US institutions that at one point or the other drew my attention. In the larger context of the post 9/11 US anthrax events come to mind, at least they may have sent me on a larger excursion. ... Obviously without any basis for what I read.

Our news, by the way, report of victims being treated but died in Turkey, at least to the extend I paid attention.

Would independent researchers be allowed to test that Turkish expertise, and would they be able to tell us anything relevant? Would that expertise be reliable?

What exactly would be the difference between chemical and biological agents, asked as nitwit. ;)

[confusedponderer]

Mikey, Old Microbiologist

An easy way is to wiki on Sarin:

"Sarin ... can be lethal even at very low concentrations, where death can occur within one[7][8] to ten minutes after direct inhalation of a lethal dose, due to suffocation from lung muscle paralysis, unless some antidotes, typically atropine and an oxime, such as pralidoxime, are quickly administered.[5] People who absorb a non-lethal dose, but do not receive immediate medical treatment, may suffer permanent neurological damage."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin

It struck me at the photos and footage was that the helpers for the wounded appeared to touch them and they weren't wearing gloves, breath protections (masks or filters) or protection suits.

That's startling: IMO the unprotection of aiders is a smelly circumstance.

I was trained in the army in NBC recce and first aid to C victims. A basic rule teached there was to NEVER EVER abdicate protection in an NBC situation because to do so would be suicidal and stupid.

So, whenever you see images of unprotected aiders help gassed victims, be sceptic. Keep in mind this:

Folks toxed with unhealthy stuff like Sarin or some mustard gas are after that TOXIC where they got the poison. Just touching victims there risks also poisoning the helpers.

Unless receiving intensive medical treatment asap the helpers then would then be sick too. Nobody in right mind risks that: The effects caused by C gasses are a brutal and painful thing.

Important to keep in mind:
When gas was used, a victim is not just someone who urgently needs help, but he is also a threat to first aiders.

Suggestion:
If images of an incident show that helpers afford to abdicate protection when working with victims, they likely are either dumb as ass, dumb suicidals, dumb untrained or simply dumb actors playing a bad skript - or, of course, they may just know they don't need it.

[Prem]

The doctor featured in some of the MSM coverage was involved in the first kidnapping of John Cantille.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/newly-qualified-nhs-doctor-accused-of-kidnapping-british-photographer-and-dutch-colleague-in-syria-8932716.html

He had to be released because Cantille returned to Syria and was abducted again (by IS).

Yet, NBC is quoting him without any comment. The only person to mention his history is Lizzie Phelan of RT.

[Old Microbiologist]

And of course, the analysis was performed on site by.....Turkey, who of course found evidence of Sarin. Just like investigating the shootdown of MH-17 was done by Ukraine. Hmm.

[Sam Peralta]

OM

Thanks. It makes it very clear that this is all propaganda. Ghouta redux, indeed!

[Thomas]

"The strong statements by Trump and Tillerson before a proper investigation could indicate it's all kabuki, and they will allow themselves to be talked down."

Or it is all kabuki and they are allowing the usual subversives to expose themselves and then close the political cauldron on them with the actual facts. There will be no public pity, and very much anger, towards those exposed for trying again to falsely lead the United States into another war.

[Yeah, Right]

Colonel, to be honest, I quite like Trump and make no claims regarding his "virtue". I am certainly very glad that he defeated Clinton, who I detest.

I am merely pointing out that the original claim by Eric that Trump has been "checked" by the Borg is false, as Trump can get out of check with a single tweet.

That's all I said, and that's all I meant.

As for avoiding war with Russia - or, indeed, with anyone - I can not agree with you more. Anyone who thinks that War With Russia is a good idea is a fool.

But the push for war is a political process, and so US political machinations can't be ignored.

[confusedponderer]

CC,
"Yet, such a dangerous gas, and the White Helmets are treating bodies with little concern to their exposed skin. This has to raise questions."

Amen. You're right IMO. Raise questions indeed ... As I said before:

'I was trained in the army in NBC recce and first aid to C victims. A basic rule teached there was to NEVER EVER abdicate protection in an NBC situation because to do so would be suicidal and stupid.

So, whenever you see images of unprotected aiders help gassed victims, be sceptic. Keep in mind this:

Folks toxed with unhealthy stuff like Sarin or some mustard gas are after that TOXIC where they got the poison. Just touching victims there risks also poisoning the helpers.

Unless receiving intensive medical treatment asap the helpers then would then be sick too. Nobody in right mind risks that: The effects caused by C gasses are a brutal and painful thing.

Important to keep in mind:
When gas was used, a victim is not just someone who urgently needs help, but he is also a threat to first aiders.

Suggestion:
If images of an incident show that helpers afford to abdicate protection when working with victims, they likely are either dumb as ass, dumb suicidals, dumb untrained or simply dumb actors playing a bad skript - or, of course, they may just know they don't need it.'

[Dave Miller in Austin]

The Guardian reporter went to the town and filed a report with pictures: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/06/the-dead-were-wherever-you-looked-inside-syrian-town-after-chemical-attack. Here is what he reported:

What was apparently a small rocket filled with gas struck the town (see the picture- the rocket barely broke through the tar/macadam road). At the same time there were Syrian government air strikes nearby. The air strikes I assume used standard bombs and attacked from a high altitude to avoid small arms fire from the ground. We do not know the connection between the two incidents.

The victims were taken to a hospital built into the side of a hill outside town (the "quarry" video). That site was then bombed by Syrian aircraft using conventional munitions. The reporter saw the remains of the facility and said that there were no munitions or military activity there. It seems to have been a real medical facility.

The poison gas was ground-hugging; one extended family that took shelter underground all died.

The American airstrike was perfunctory- five damaged jets were destroyed but the repair facility where people might have been working was apparently not targeted and there was no attempt to shut down the field by cratering the runway. Russian sources cited in the article say fewer than half the American Tomahawks hit the airfield so either there were other targets, many missiles malfunctioned or the air defense system destroyed the subsonic tomahawks.

Remember, the chemical attack two-three years ago also used small missiles and they turned out to have been fired from positions not controlled by the Syrian government. ANd that is all we really know so far.

[DH]

Alas, we need a new frame. A la Babak, Trump just threw 59 bones to appease the Borg.

[Thomas]

DH,

I don't know what to say, I thought there was enough honorable people left to prevent national suicide, or that Trump and Tillerson would have a nominal understanding of the Ghouta attack, alas the NeoCons learned the lessons of Trotsky well and purged them all over the last 24 years.

When the enemy in the gate runs the government, the nation is lost.

[Imagine]

Why is the drop off area for the White Helmet location and hospital so disorganized with bodies and people lying all over the place blocking access to the White Helmet location and hospital?

Because it's staged to look busy. Hollywood style. Not to be usable. The randomness is artistic, it's directed, on purpose.

[Imagine]

Oerlemans did not testify for fear that the re-kidnapped Cantlie would get killed if he did.