Ghouta redux? Was this attack real?

The MSM is filled with "news" of a supposed Syrian Government chemical warfare attack in Idlib Province.  All of the reporting is sourced to SOHR (one rebel supporter in a basement office in Coventry, England) and rebel media in Idlib Province.  How do we know this really happened?  The rebels have proven themselves extremely capable of staging propaganda pageants and they do have chemical weapons.  They make them in Syria.  These are not ignorant people.  The "White Helmets" were a fraud.  This is probably another, but the Borg loves the noise, especially the hysterics on CNN and MSNBC.

These AQ connected rebels in Idlib have been conducting an offensive in northern Hama.  This has been turned back and the rebels are being driven out of Hama in the direction of Idlib having lost many men.  As someone observed here the standard rebel reaction to severe adversity is to claim a chemical attack.  pl

Comments

[Serge]

How do we know this really happened?Well, there are plenty of videos for one:

https://ia601506.us.archive.org/15/items/SarinAttackKhanSheikhoun/%D8%B9%D8%B4%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%AA%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%82%D8%AA%D9%84%D9%89%20%D9%88%D8%AD%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%AA%20%D8%A7%D8%AE%D8%AA%D9%86%D8%A7%D9%82%20%D8%A8%D9%82%D8%B5%D9%81%20%D8%A8%D9%80%20%D8%BA%D8%A7%D8%B2%20%D8%B3%D8%A7%D9%85%20%20%D8%B9%D9%84%D9%89%20%D8%AE%D8%A7%D9%86%20%D8%B4%D9%8A%D8%AE%D9%88%D9%86%20%D8%A8%D8%A5%D8%AF%D9%84%D8%A8.mp4

[Priam's Crazy Daughter]

I am also becoming a little jaded in my reactions to reports of chemical attacks. Give me a break from the emotional guilt, you ME throwbacks to WWI gas attack tactics.

They are, of course, horrid when they are being used in situations where innocents can be caught up by them. I does sicken me to think people would carry them out or even think of carrying them out.

But I've been sickened by this sort of news since the Halabja attack against the Kurds, and I am still questioning who really did the attack in Syria while HRC was in the midst of her gun running and shortly after Barry gave his red line warning. Did no one read Sy Hersh's "Red Line vs. the Rat Line" piece?

I never find a good counter analysis to that. And being of the Vietnam generation, I still remember Hersh for the My Lai story.

I just wish we could invent a gas that targets only certain types of people, those who believe gas attacks are still something humans should do to other humans.

And I do hope this currently reported gas attack is just "fake news."

[turcopolier]

serge

That doesn't prove a dammed thing. The rebels have proven themselves skilled at both Ghouta and Aleppo in staging these things. pl

[The Twisted Genius]

Leith Fadel at Al Masdar News is saying the SAA struck a jihadist chemical weapons factory in Khan Sheikhoun. The SAA thought it was a missile factory. Of course he got this from a reporter in Suqaylabiyah. It's a possibility, but certainly not confirmation. I'm surprised the Trump administration is jumping on the "Assad used gas" bandwagon. He blamed both Assad and Obama for the attack on innocent civilians. His SecState passed warning to Moscow and Damascus. WTF

[Jony Kanuck]

My noon tweet feed had Leith Abou Fadel (Assad's bulldog) re-tweeting Yusha Yuseef: "Syrian Air Force targeted missles factory containing chlorine gas supplies in Khan Sheikhoun" One tweet doesn't prove but as Fadel also commented: "Give me a break; The SAA is winning everywhere, why would they gas civilians?"

[pmr9]

Col Lang

Over at ACloserLookonSyria (http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_3_April_2017), we're still trying to make sense of this story.

Some preliminary notes

1. Close examination of the photos of the children shows that at least some have head wounds.

2. There were reports that civilians were abducted from villages in northern Hama last week, before the rebels retreated. As yet there are no documented matches of alleged Khan Sheikhoun victims to those abducted

3. The alleged impact site is in the town of Khan Sheikhoun, but the site where the children's bodies are seen laid out is a sort of quarry with passages cut into the rock. This is tentatively geolocated to a site about fifteen miles to the south, just south of Latamineh, that was in use last year as a rebel headquarters (and bombed by the Russians) and is now apparently used by the White Helmets. It doesn't make any sense for the children to have been brought to this site, apparently separated from their mothers, unless they were captives. Even if the geolocation is incorrect it's clearly not in the town of Hama.

4. The Reuters photographer Ammar Abdullah, is deeply embedded with Nusra.

5. An alleged chemical attack on 30 March in Lataminah causing 70 nonfatal casualties and attributed to organophosphates (nerve agents) was reported by UOSSM, a French-based NGO closely associated with information operations. It's possible that the children were killed on this date, and that the videos were uploaded today as evidence of a chemical attack in Khan Sheikhoun.

6. As in the Ghouta massacre, there are no videos of victims found dead in their homes being removed by rescuers: just bodies laid out in the open and some alleged victims in hospital.

I think it's pretty clear that this incident was a massacre of captives, staged to look like a chemical attack. The victims may have been gassed, but not necessarily with an organophosphate: many other gased would be lethal in a confined space.

What's not clear is whether the rebels set up this operation on their own initiative, or whether this was an information operation directed by outside agencies. A possible motive would be to disrupt US-Russian cooperation, and to make a case for establishing a "safe zone" in NW Syria.

[Ghostship]

Please show me on Google Maps where there is a quarry in Khan Sheikhoun.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@35.4431729,36.6464502,3061m/data=!3m1!1e3

All the action in the video you linked to takes place in a quarry but it does't look like anybody lives in that quarry so were they all visiting the quarry when the attack occurred and why?

Most disturbing of all, Al-masdar news is reporting:
"It is known that about 250 people from Majdal and Khattab were kidnapped by Al-Qaeda terrorists last week. Local sources have claimed that many of those dead from the chemical weapons were those from Majdal and Khattab."

https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/jumping-conclusions-something-not-adding-idlib-chemical-weapons-attack/

[Jack]

Sir

It sure is Ghouta redux. Our hysterical media and all the "Assad must go" crooners will be screaming from the ramparts. What's new. Nikki needs some air time.

[Serge]

Colonel,
Agreed that they are adept at staging things, the presence of white helmets in the video I posted only increased my suspicion, but from the large number of reports and videos coming out(with the victims showing the classical signs of sarin:pupils,convulsions, clearly not results of thermobaric suffocation which is often erroneously reported by media as the results of chemical strikes) its clear to me that something happened. Question is whether it was accidental(a strike on a depot as I believe some Syrian sources have said it might have been)or AQ staging the attack as might have been done in Ghouta ,or in fact the work of the Syrian government(makes absolutely no sense at this stage with them having the upper hand, unless this was the work of some rogue faction or group within the heavily decentralized SAA). Tillerson commented a couple hours ago:
"We call upon Russia and Iran, yet again, to exercise their influence over the Syrian regime and to guarantee that this sort of horrific attack never happens again,"
reuters is also doing some vague reporting from this or that intelligence official or government source saying it was almost certainly the work of SAA:
https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/849359657999233024
https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/849340098802057217

[Serge]

What in the video indicates it is filmed in a quarry? The pile of rubble in the background at 1:10? A pile of rubble would seem to me to be a common scene in any syrian town by now. I have also seen followup videos of some type of white helmets base/hospital cut into rock near Khan shiekhoun,I'm unsure if it's the same location as this video, maybe the victims were brought to this location?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbePT_ZwO68&index=42&list=PLPC0Udeof3T5wl6rRYrvyGKoAd2W4XG46

[pmr9]

A key source for the story of a chemical attack is Dr Shajul Islam, apparently in charge of the hospital in Khan Sheikhoun. Some commentators have noted that in the middle of a mass casualty incident he was more concerned with tweeting and making videos than with attending to patients.

A bit more digging reveals that Dr Shajul Islam, who qualified in London, was struck off the UK medical register in 2013 (http://www.bmj.com/content/352/bmj.i1831). He had been arrested on returning to the UK from Syria in 2012, and charged with kidnapping two journalists: John Cantlie, and Jeroen Oerlemans. However the trial collapsed when the two victims failed to appear as prosecution witnesses: Cantlie had been kidnapped again alongside James Foley. It's not clear what happened to Oerlemans. This didn't stop the General Medical Council, which is not bound by the same rules of evidence, from striking him off.

[b]

An AFP (al-Qaeda) reporter claims "the smell" hit him when he entered the hospital. He meant the gas smell. But Sarin does not smell at all.
https://twitter.com/AFPphoto/status/849289521892085760

The White Helmets "rescuers" worked without even basic protection. That pretty much excludes nerve agents like Sarin or they all would be sick or dead by now. The measures they took in the videos would not be helpful to any real victim.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oE6YjYyH1c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTszOjAZNtI

A reporter from the opposition Orient News tweeted yesterday(!) that they would soon report on a gas attack in that place - "prediction"?!
https://twitter.com/WithinSyriaBlog/status/849240804556242944

The alleged "impact craters" shown on oppo TV of the "bombs" looked more like mortar craters and were in a widely open area. Where were the people when those "bombs" hit?
https://twitter.com/Gjoene/status/849276618711453697

The "doctor" who announced the attack first was jailed in UK for allegedly helping to kidnap journos in Syria. He was let go back to Syria (turned to work for MI-6?)
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/uk-doctor-key-iding-james-foley-killer-report-article-1.1913265

If Syria had gas would it not use it when militarily under pressure against the attacking enemy? Instead the army prefers to lose hundreds of soldiers?

Attack some civilians (why not AQ?) when it just won big in Hama and Damascus? Just days before new international talks come up? Just days after Trump admin said Assad leaving is not the priority no. 1?

IMHO: Whatever the incident was, it was no real Sarin attack and very likely staged

[turcopolier]

b

Thanks. I wonder if we will ever find out what happened. The MSM over here has gone mad with war fever over this. pl

[Lars]

There are reports from various sources who went to the site about a certain smell. Not enough data yet about the gas or who is responsible, but I am sure more investigations will ensue. Many media outlets in Europe seem to be rather certain the Assad regime is culpable. Time will tell.

[Peter in Toronto]

That doesn't appear remotely convincing. The concentration of civilians appears unnatural and staged, there are no obvious remnants of the means of delivering this alleged chemical agent and the presence of the White Helmets performance artists within minutes of such an event is suspect.

More importantly, Assad had no incentive for such an assault.

The probability of Syrian forces deliberately conducting such an attack are almost zero, in my estimation.

[Peter in Toronto]

You do understand who the White Helmets are and what their purpose in Syria is, correct?

[trinlae]

Although pure speculation doesn't add true value, it occurs to me that if the dreadful scene has been staged in this instance, it is most likely not the first time. Is this a playbook scene that has been run before? If so, it must take some planning , brains. telecoms etc.

[Serge]

Unrelated,but speaking of Cantlie, that poor bastard is still alive and is trotted out in IS propaganda videos every 6-12 months or so. Last appearance in mid december in East Mosul as a "war correspondent". Very interesting how they've kept him alive compared to the others, I would guess his seeming sharp tongue and quick wits have something to do with it, I suspect that he also edits some of their english language media(magazines in particular)

[Serge]

Here is the geolocated location of the video/white helmets base, immediately to the north and contiguous with khan shiekhoun
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@35.4584784,36.6541198,765m/data=!3m1!1e3

[Serge]

Don't know what you mean by unnatural or staged, you can hear the frantic beeping of cars in the background, seems to me that the civilians are being brought to this location(contiguous with khan sheikhoun as a responded to Ghostship) for treatment from the immediate site of the attack. Agreed that he has no incentive for such a move. IMO there is no actual top down control for the vast majority of the SAA, it is an extremely decentralized outfit at this point. Any number of actors within it could have done it for any number of reasons

[John_Frank]

Fwiiw, follows is a link to the statement issued by the President as tweeted out by the State Department earlier today:

https://twitter.com/StateDept/status/849346645892497408

Also, follows is a link to the statement issued by Secretary of State Tillerson, along with the full text:

https://www.state.gov/secretary/remarks/2017/04/269460.htm

"The United States strongly condemns the chemical weapons attack in Idlib province, the third allegation of the use of such weapons in the past month alone. There are reports of dozens dead, including many children. While we continue to monitor the terrible situation, it is clear that this is how Bashar al-Assad operates: with brutal, unabashed barbarism. Those who defend and support him, including Russia and Iran, should have no illusions about Assad or his intentions. Anyone who uses chemical weapons to attack his own people shows a fundamental disregard for human decency and must be held accountable.

It is also clear that this horrific conflict, now in its seventh year, demands a genuine ceasefire and the supporters of the armed combatants in the region need to ensure compliance. We call upon Russia and Iran, yet again, to exercise their influence over the Syrian regime and to guarantee that this sort of horrific attack never happens again. As the self-proclaimed guarantors to the ceasefire negotiated in Astana, Russia and Iran also bear great moral responsibility for these deaths."

Oh yes, the United States is the President of the UN Security Council for the month of April:

https://twitter.com/StateDept/status/849032443524939777

Lastly, from March 1:

Explanation of Vote on a Draft UN Security Council Resolution on Syria Chemical Weapons
https://usun.state.gov/remarks/7691

[Serge]

Ghostship,
Sorry for the double post,here is the location of the strike location:
http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.449868&lon=36.648846&z=18&m=b

As you can see it is to the north of the town, very near to the "quarry"

[Mikee]

"Mariam, 14, a resident of Khan Sheikhoun, where the attack took place, had not yet reached the exam hall when she saw an aircraft drop a bomb on a one-story building a few dozen yards away. In a telephone interview Tuesday night, she described an explosion like a yellow mushroom cloud that stung her eyes. “It was like a winter fog,” she said.

Sheltering in her home nearby, she saw several residents arrive by car to help the wounded. “When they got out, they inhaled the gas and died,” Mariam said."

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/04/world/middleeast/syria-gas-attack.html?_r=0

How did Mariam survive to tell her story?

[Serge]

RUmod has spoken of the attack, saying that it was an accidental strike on a chemical warehouse, whose contents were destined for Iraq(strange)
https://www.rt.com/news/383522-syria-idlib-warehouse-strike-chemical/

So tacit admission that there has been a chemical incident at the area, it's not fakery or staged. Personally I do not buy this explanation that it was a strike on a depot. Not an expert by far on these things, but from my limited knowledge of organic chemistry it doesn't seem that such effects resulting from a strike on a depot would be possible

[Bandolero]

PCD

I, too, hope this video session is just fake news but I fear the AQ-led terrorists this time really killed some children to enhance the credibility of their propaganda. The group responsible for this CW false flag massacre propaganda is basically the same who killed the boy in a "rebel" video analyzed by a Swedish group of doctors recently:

Swedish Doctors for Human Rights: White Helmets Video, Macabre Manipulation of Dead Children and Staged Chemical Weapons Attack to Justify a “No-Fly Zone” in Syria

http://theindicter.com/swedish-doctors-for-human-rights-white-helmets-video-macabre-manipulation-of-dead-children-and-staged-chemical-weapons-attack-to-justify-a-no-fly-zone-in-syria/

The Swedish doctors are right that these terrorists have no shame for nothing to stage their false flag propaganda events, but they missed the videos temporarily available on Youtube showing the boy still living - before he was killed with drugs and a horrific "adrenaline injection."

I know it's cruel but their is evidence pointing to the fact that these terrorists really kill children and other people to make their propaganda look more realistic.