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22 March 2017

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turcopolier

All

I hear from confidential sources that there has been no parachute people drops and that as TTG says the airland is by Osprey. There is a great romance to actual paratroop drops but they are to be avoided if possible because there always quite a lot of injuries in the drop. pl

John Minnerath

pl,
My memory is getting dim, it's been over 50 years and I suppose things have changed, but I seem to remember 50% as the planned casualty rate on an airborne drop.

turcopolier

John Minnerath

I think that was a planning factor for big airborne operations like Overlord or Varsity. I was just talking about drop injuries. pl

Anna Komnene

There's been some disquieting rumors that the SDF/YPG have turned northern Syria into the largest defacto black site in the world for the enhanced interrogation of prisoners. Battlefield combatants caught in either Iraq or Syria are then given to SDF/YPG who then turn them over to the US.

Seacoaster

10% for drop injuries is the planning factor I've heard, via a buddy who served as a platoon leader in the 82nd Airborne.

HDL

My memory is also dim but I remember Ft Benning teaching one malfunction (of any type) in any five jumps. Of course that was the basic T-10, back when chutes were white and round.

John Minnerath

I only had the displeasure of jumping in a couple mass drops, there were always a lot of injuries and broken equipment in those things.
When it was just an A team or maybe a few more we would get a sprained ankle once in a while.
I do remember on Okinawa we were breaking so many M-14s the armorers couldn't keep up and we were finally told to quit jumping with them.

Heros

Col,

A few threads back (http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2017/03/httpssouthfrontorgisraeli-prime-minister-promises-continue-hitting-hezbollah-in-syria.html#comments)

I asked you if " a military officer fulfilling orders that violate the constitution or international law were guilty of war crimes and were legally obligated at a minimum to not fulfil those orders. "

You replied:

"I spoke of orders consistent with international and US law. Their opinion of what is legal may be different than yours."

We now have what appears to be undebatably an invasion of Syrian territory by US forces. Assad has clearly stated that as the UN recognized and democratically elected president of Syria that this invasion is illegal. The UN Security Council has not made any resolutions allowing this invasion nor the general assembly. It would appear to be an act of aggressive war which to my understanding was determined to be more serious that war crimes in the Nuremburg trials in about 1948. The US has not declared war on Syria, and to my knowledge has no US Constitutional right to be in Syria.

As I said in the other thread, I am a civilian. This action by the US appears to be illegal from both International and US law. As I asked in that thread, are not US officers and even soldiers legally obligated and even sworn to countermand such orders?

Could you or anyone else explain what is incorrect in my description of events above?

PS: I chose Heros because my Grandmother was from Carmille Illonois (Little Egypt) and she once told me her uncle was murdered by a Yankee during the conflicts there in the civil war. My mothers family had a very German name, and she and her brother basically spent the second world war paranoid about what might happen to them, even though he served in Pacific on a destroyer with the Navy. Heros von Borcke seemed to cover a lot of bases concerning my family history. Plus I consider myself to be a secessionist.

raven

My dad was part of the landing on Corregidor the day after the parachute assault. The 1st Bn 503rd was held in reserve and, because the parachute drop was so costly, they landed by boat. My dad always takes about paratroopers being blown into the sea and being rescued by the naval craft in the are. When I asked about that on the "Heritage Battalion" website I was met with a resounding "THAT NEVER HAPPENED". I was in no way going to engage with vets of that action and I let it go but it's always interested me. The paratroopers jumped at 500 feet and as windy as it was it's hard to imagine someone didn't go in the drink.

Here's footage of the Retaking of the Rock.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_CGSuXzGIw

raven

"The perfectly coordinated triphibious American assault to recapture Corregidor left the 503rd PRCT with 169 dead and 531 wounded. The 34th Infantry Regiment suffered 38 killed and 153 wounded. Of the 2,065 men of both lifts by the 503rd PRCT, about 280 were killed or severely injured. Three men suffered parachute malfunctions, and two men who collided with buildings died. Eight men were killed either in the air or before they were able to get free of their chutes, a further 50 were wounded in the air or upon landing. Several men were missing in action at the drop. The total injuries (not by wounding) on the drop were 210.

Japanese sources have estimated that there were about 6,700 Japanese on the island when the 503rd PRCT and 34th Infantry landed, of whi which only 50 survived. Another 19 were taken prisoner, and 20 Japanese holdouts surfaced after the war on 1 January 1946."

turcopolier

raven

Yr account matches exactly with what I heard as a cadet sitting next to a veteran of The Rock's assault on the island at of all things a Jose Greco concert in the tiny episcopal church hall in Lexington, Virginia. We went to his house afterward so that his wife could feed me her excellent apple pie while he filled in the details. Oddly, me da had been stationed at Ft. Mills on the rock in the 20s. My interlocutor on this said that after he gathered himself up between a couple of buildings and shot a few Japs he ran into buddies who asked, not about th eJaps but about his jump. Geronimo! pl

turcopolier

Heros

Your point is just chicken shit and you know it. pl

turcopolier

raven
IMO, and probably that of your father, there were not enough dead Japs. These little Jap bastards killed by beheading at Camp O'Odonnell the US Army chaplain who baptized me because he insisted on ministering to the POWs and 100,00 Filipino civilian in Manila. Fuck'em pl

Heros

Col,

You write: "Your point is just chicken shit and you know it."

No, I don't know it. As I stated I am a civilian, and I have never served in the military.

As far as I can tell what is going on here is something very primordial, basically that might makes right, to the victor goes the spoils, the victor writes the history, and the victor decides who broke the law.

In the end this means that any laws of war are completely pointless and the only thing that matters is don't lose the war. This of course ends in tragic events like the Shenandoa, Indian Wars, Dresden and Nagasaki.

I have long considered military professionals to be honorable people, at least far more honorable than politicians, lawyers and used car salesmen. If what I wrote above is true, then I and the vast majority of Americans have been sold a bill of goods by the military that has no relation to reality.

turcopolier

Heros

You have no idea what you are talking about. Abstract civilian bullshit divorced from reality. Get lost . You are wasting my time reading this crap. pl

Peter AU

Thanks for the clarification TTG, pl.

I read about the operation as soon as it hit the news, checked wikimapia for the location, and found that the frontlines had already been updated.
http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.809182&lon=38.398247&z=12&m=b

Have noticed this before. By the time something hits the news - al Masdar news ect - or is reported on twitter, wikimapia seems to have been updated.

The Twisted Genius

HDL,

That sounds about right. Out of my first five jumps with the OD green T-10s, my first was a perfect Mae West. I heard the black hats on the DZ shouting "Jumper with the malfunction, pull your reserve." on their bull horns. I pulled the reserve as the Mae West righted itself by ripping in two. I still have the reserve handle and pieces of OD parachute nylon.

The steerable chute actually have more malfunctions. In Group we went back to the T-10 for low level jumps since it was more reliable, especially with anti-inversion nets. It was also bigger so we didn't hit the ground quite as hard.

John Minnerath

We were using T-10s, by '62-'63 they were all OD, the reserves were white.
I don't know when the T-10 went out of service.

The Twisted Genius

John Minnerath,

I went through jump school as an Army ROTC cadet in the summer of '73. There were no women and we did PT bare chested. We were told stories of a steerable chute being in development. Our T-10s did not have anti-inversion nets. We were also instructed to make our own brain pads out of foam and tape. They weren't issued at that time.

John Minnerath

Damn TTG, I didn't know you were such a young'n.
I went to Jump school summer of 62. Oddly enough Pat Lang and I were in the same Training platoon.
I've never heard of an anti=inversion net, things got tangled up we just climbed up and started shaking things loose.
I never pulled a reserve, but got a big time ass chewing once when I had 2 or 3 panels blow out and didn't pop it. Point of honor ya know.

raven

It was an odd thing. Dad was the only one of three brothers who were on the Crosby to go the war. My uncle, who stayed at Navy Pier the whole way, hated "Japs". Dad had no illusions about their barbarity but, somehow, there was a level of respect for their tenacity. He was a high school football coach in California in the later 50's-early 60's and he said he'd watch the Japanese kids and when they began to wear down he knew he'd pushed them enough.

In terms of Corregidor. He was on an LCPR that got beached and took a great deal of fire from the caves above the beach. One of the paratroopers on his craft got hit and, while administering first aid, he put his folding stock carbine and field glasses over his head,. When they finally had to make a run for the LCM's on the beach he thought he was being hit but it turned out that it was the gear hitting his chest. I have the field glasses on the wall. My final story about that is about when I took him to the opening of the Pacific Wing of theD-Day Museum (he wouldn't go until they changed it because "God damit ' I was in 30 D-days!). Anyway, I had a nice movie camera and I got him on a truck of swabbies and set out on foot to film the parade. At one point I noticed he briefly broke into tears and then recovered (I always think of that when you mention that you have seen men cry). When I processed the video i saw that he looked into the crowd and saw a poster being held up that had "Rock Force" and a likeness of the island. He never forgot.

kooshy

Colonel, and TTG, if you guys don't mind, here is President's message on Nowruz

"Statement by President Donald J. Trump on Nowruz"
https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/03/22/statement-president-donald-j-trump-nowruz

Hugo Grotius

"When you you have neither the law nor the facts on your side, pound the table..."

Obviously Heros is right -- we hanged the Nazis after WW II for EXACTLY what we have been doing in the ME for the last 30 years -- and you have no answer for it.

YOU are the one being chickenshit here, Lang.

fanto

Colonel,
I am puzzled by your seemingly irritated answers in exchange with Heros.
I understand his point about Syrian Government protest the USA putting troops in Syria without its invitation or permission. Syria did invite Russia, so that Russian involvement is “covered” by international law. This Syrian protest IMHO avoids the grave error of omission committed by the Polish government in September 1939 – when Stalin invaded Poland. The polish government did not protest on or after September 17, 1939 when Stalin’s armies invaded Poland from the East. The Polish government did not declare that it found itself is in state of war with the Soviet Union. If not for that fatal omission, all the propaganda of “coming to the help of ethnic minorities” would be unmasked and Stalin’s crimes (Katyn for example) perhaps would not have occurred, because Stalin was always shrewd enough to have some kind of international law “cover” for his illegal moves. Syrian government has done the right thing, it clarifies the situation.
I do not understand your irritation really, please – call me names as you did to Heros, and I will stop frequenting your otherwise very good publication, this time for good.

LeaNder

Heros, did the UN Security Council Resolution 1441 make the Iraq war legal? There seems to be a debate.

Did the UN Security Council authorize the use of force against the Taliban? Lets leave Libya out...

In Syria matters are no doubt even more ambiguous. But I assume you know. If you have been watching this site longer, you will have noticed an acronym that stand for Humanitarian Intervention cum Regime Change. That was, as Pat writes, as you know the standard argument. Assad must go, he is killing his own people. Genocide? Does Kosovo ring a bell?

Supporting proxies to get rid of a dictator, isn't a problem, is it? Arming them for self-defense only. No? We do not include the Kurds in this, because it makes no sense to include them. Their enemies isn't the regime, their enemies are the Islamists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1441

Now interestingly, you may recall "Old Europe" (France, Germany) that weren't officially among the willing to support the Iraq war. There was this France-Russia-Germany dissent axis. Remember? I later found out Germany was nevertheless involved in minor support missions.

Thus this legal curiosity:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_the_Iraq_War#Germany

[PDF]GERMAN LAW JOURNAL / June 2006
www.germanlawjournal.com/s/GLJ_Vol_07_No_01.pdf
page 26-45

B. The Facts of the Matter and the Outcome of the Case
The respondent, an army officer in the rank of a major, was subjected to disciplinary proceedings in a military court, inter alia, for refusing to obey an order to participate in the development of a software programme for a military weapons system. This IT-project is aimed at enhancing the efficiency of the German Federal Armed Forces. The respondent did not follow the order of his superiors, arguing that the software could also be used in combat operations in Iraq. The respondent invoked his basic right to freedom of conscience provided by Art. 4, para. 1 of the Grundgesetz (GG – Basic Law).3 The military court found him guilty of malfeasance and demoted him to a captain. He appealed the decision of the military court before the BVerwG,4 which acquitted him.

******
I am not particularly fond of your earlier allusions to the Nürnberg trials in this context. Maybe you look up Nürnberg Laws. Complicated issue. But no doubt one that somewhat inspires Humanitarian Intervention.

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