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19 December 2016


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Babak Makkinejad

I think that the secularists' and Kemalists' failures in nurturing Liberty had a detrimental effect on the World of Islam - they did not discharge their duty to Muslim Civilization in as much as they used the same tactics as Hassan Sabbah to silence dissenting voices.

In that manner, they perpetuated the same evils that had afflicted Muslim polities since the time of the Seljuks, if not earlier. Kemalist Turkey could have been a model for other Muslim states to emulate. That was not to be.

And if you think she could not have served as a model, you would be wrong. During the heydays of AKP rule, Iranians would point Turkish practices to their own government and asking: "Turks are doing this and that - which you oppose illegally - are they not Muslims too?"

That was an argument that could have altered minds in Iran.

And likewise, all those Muslim dictators and autocrats and doctrinaire religious people, had there been a dispensation in Kemalist Turkey that was nurturing and developing Liberty, could have been challenged in their assertions that Liberty is License and must be suppressed.

Ishmael Zechariah

Two questions:
1-What kind of "Liberty" do you aspire to, and where does it exist in the known universe?
2-Has it ever existed in any nation?

The followers of Kemal Ataturk were/are secular Turkish nationalists. We did not aspire to set a religious example to any.

IMO, the accomplishments of the tayyip, or of gulen, as well as the intellectual level of their "followers" need no discussion.
Ishmael Zechariah

Babak Makkinejad

To answer your question #1: Liberty is the Absence of Fear.
On your #2: The comparison, like many things empirical - such as Reynold's Number - are relative. Turkey is not as Free as Spain, for example.

So you feel that you do not need discussion with the lesser people; for myself, I know that many of my own ideas and insights have been generated through this discussion forum. And Gulen and his followers, however sheep like they may be, have to be defeated on the plane of ideas.

This fear of discussion is another bane of not just Turkey but many other countries in the world.


I don't think he was trying to pass truck driver test, he aimed to kill innocents in cold blood to do that all you need is to start and drive forward.


One should also add that the views of Arab Jews or Jewish Arabs (however they see themselves) is nowhere in sight in this discussion. A very substantial percentage of Israel's population.

Ishmael Zechariah

1-Those w/out fear are not necessarily free. Those who are "free" can be in mortal fear.
2-Spain, Torquemada, Franco, Guernica, Lluís Companys i Jover, Katalunya...fear, freedom, Reynold's #?
3-gulen, tayyip, cultists, planes of ideas? You are fond of quoting "rectification of names". Re-read Mencius. The question of whether a king or a robber was executed when Zhou was eliminated is still extant.
We can always debate whether islamists engage in discussion or verbal masturbation. The day these vermin will drown in their "accomplishments" is not far off.
Ishmael Zechariah


The truck reported to the driver's company that it was driven in such a way it was about to choke and stall: the company called the driver who did not respond (because he was stabbed already).

Babak Makkinejad

You are quibbling.

I do not think we are engaging in verbal masturbation.

Kemalist forbid women in hejab to enter government offices.

They put that genius poet, Nazim Hikmat - in jail because he was communist.

How many times did Aziz Naseen was sent to jail for expressing his opinion?

I have started wondering if Franco's Spain was not a freer country than Muslim state today.

I am not against Mustafa Kemal - only pointing out its failure in truly charting a new path - towards Freedom and Devolution of Power.

Ishmael Zechariah

BM the "non-quibbler";
Some thoughts in random order:
i-With all its faults, the secular nationalist state founded by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk had better governance than any of the islamist states you can point to today. It jailed dissidents, and executed secessionists. So what? We are not claiming it was ideal; just that it was a significantly better starting point from which an ideal might be sought if one were so inclined.
ii-The Turkey of tayyip and gulen is a good example of what the islamist females in hijab and their males can create. Do you think it is better than the Republic of Turkey between 1923-1948?
iii-Given the past (global) performance of islamists over the last 1/2 millennia or so, what makes you anticipate better performance from these in the future?
iv-A long time ago Turks used to be more progressive: in pre-islamic times Turkish women did not wear "hicab". They rode horses, took part in councils and were considered worthwhile citizens. Sticking a woman into a sack to prevent males from being led astray seems like a quaint idea.
v-What would happen to someone who rejects islam and converts to Shamanism in Iran, KSA, or the Turkey of the hijabis?
Pax Vobiscum.

Ishmael Zechariah



I will in this case.

Of course this is just a coincidence. Just like it’s a coincidence that all this occurred shortly after President Obama vowed to retaliate against alleged Russian “interference” in the recent presidential election. And just like it’s a coincidence that former acting CIA chief Mike Morell has publicly advocated “killing Russians



.. and to add, the 7 year old speaking English very well!!! didn't know they had english classes in E Aleppo!!!!

and if you get to see the full video, his dad looks like had a very recent clean shaven face! good for western viewers. perhaps his beard was in the pile of beards BM had posted a picture of.



From what I understand Russia had not been allowed by the Turkish government to have their special protective services in Turkey to guard their Ambassador. If they had been in place, this wouldn't have happened.

And something else, you can call it coincidence or what, but a week before the death of Putin's driver in Moscow, and a week before the assassination of the Russian Ambassador to Turkey, former Asst DCI putz Morrell called on national TV for the Russians to suffer some pain or another. I'm sure that that particular has not gone unnoticed by the Russians. IMO Morrell is playing a very dangerous game with his clap trap.


The "reavers" released barbaric footage of the execution of two Turkish captives today, in the style of the Jordanian pilot.One of them sent as a spy,part of the gendarmerie intelligence, and the other a TSK private. Both were apparently captured in 2015, so they are not the two(SF iirc) captured a couple weeks ago. Hard to believe but this one dwarfs anything they've done so far in sheer savagery, releasing this a day after the Al Bab debacle of yesterday was obviously a calculated move to cause as much turmoil in Turkish society as possible. Erdogan shut down all social media access as it came out, facebook youtube twitter etc.

mike allen

Serge -

One of the victims was reportedly a fan of the "reavers", with tributes to al-Baghdadi on his Facebook page. Poetic justice.

The other was a poor Kurdish conscript. But that will never be admitted in Turkey.


mike allen-
He was a spy sent to IS territory, and caught(gendarmerie intelligence).This is why his facebook was styled that way(in a transparently amateurish fashion, I might add)

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