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29 November 2016


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Babak Makkinejad

Blinkered thinking indeed.

On the eve of the Iraqi invasion of Iran, thee was this officer in the Iranian Army's Duxieme Bureau who was doing his duty, sending up reports about the doings of the Iraqi Army up the chain, warning about the possibility of war.

He was arrested by the Revolutionary Government for spreading lies and creating tension between two brotherly Muslim countries.

I do not know what happened to him.

Yes, elites miscalculate and ordinary people suffer and die.

Eric Newhill

IZ, Correction; Just saw what I wrote when distracted...The one executed in Oorfa was, indeed, a great grandfather (my grandmother's father). I did live with my paternal grandfather, who survived the whole mess.


Mike, there is no such thing as Persian blood ( nationalism ) if you knew Iranian Azaries or Kurds you would understand they don't undersatnd "Persian nationalism based on blood" they don't even see the Persepolis as a "Persian' " only heritage' they see it as an Iranian heritage, like its thier own which really is.
Someone, a poet, an Iranian nationalist, named Ferdosi from Khorasan, settled this matter of Persian vs Iranian more than a thousand years ago,in an epic book called shahnameh meaning book of kings, his book is the Iranian national ID card, he was a Shia Iranian and wrote this book for non Persian Sunni, Turkic speaking king of ghaznavids dinesty. He wrote " If Iran is not to be, my body wouldn't be" that is, very much a common understanding in greater Iran, including some of neighboring countries, I would think ever since. For some reasons, it is difficult for the westerners to understand that In that part of the world Iran not necessarily means the geography of the country of Iran, IMO, it rather means a common heritage to all nighbours ethnicities and religions that associate themselves to it. IMO that is the reason it is so hard to instigate a meaningful thretaning ethnical uprising there. All Iranians including majority of immediate nighbours enjoy a common IRANIAN heritage before and after Islam which according to iranologists is even more important in art, littuature, caulture medicine, sineces than that of pre-Islamic period.

mike allen

Babak Makkinejad -

Respectively, I have no beef with Iran. You may be confusing me with our President-elect and his new National Security Advisor and many in our Congress. Not that I would ever belong in such august company. I am a just a dumb old armchair chatterer, but I would love to visit Iran. I was told by an American who was there many decades ago how beautiful it was and how friendly the people are.

But I do not understand your animosity against Kurds. True, only some of them are Shia, others Sunni and many other religions and even some communists. Is that a reason to dislike them when they are fighting against Daesh in Iraq that would love nothing better than to destroy Iran and kill or forcibly convert its citizens. And in Syria the Kurds fight against Daesh, al-Quaeda and many other Takfiri units. Iraqi Kurds, or many of them, aided Iran in the 1980s against Saddam and paid for it deeply in Halabja and elsewhere.

On your point that the only fight in Iran's northwest is between Kurds and Azeris: If that is so then why is the IRGC executing and imprisoning so many Kurds there. Why is the IRIA bombing PDKI and PAK?

Also you appear to be saying that ANRO and Jundallah are not Azeri and Baluchi resistance movements in Iran? They exist. Wishing them away will not make them disappear.

Eric Newhill

Mike Allen,
Everything my family elders told me about the Kurds - and they had to live amongst them, unfortunately - is that the Kurds are rootless, murdering bandits, lacking in the higher aspects of culture. The prefer to raid and steal, than to build and grow. Furthermore, they cannot seem to agree on anything resembling a coherent "culture". One chief ties his camel and puts his tent up here and that is a kingdom. Another does the same over there, and that is another kingdom.

These are low caste people. Useful to us now, yes, because enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Of course it is entirely possible that things have changed over the last hundred years. Maybe now, the Kurds, given a chance, will evolve into beacons of freedom and democracy in the MENA. Though one wonders why they did not in all the years before.

Babak Makkinejad

Thank you for your comments.

I am suggesting to you that the struggle that Kurds are waging against established states of Iran, Turkey, Syria, and Iraq is a futile one; both within the historical perspective as well as in this moment in time - that all it accomplished is death and destruction for Kurds.

Furthermore, the excuses for that struggle makes no sense; cultural freedom? Look on the Internet for the number of Kurdish language books that have been published in Iran during the last 35 years; more than during the time of Monarchy. I am not familiar with the scene in Turkey, may be IZ or Kunari can shed some light on that.

Some people are just fools - individually and collectively and you cannot save them from the effects of their own delusions. However, one must not also indulge them in their fantasies.

If Kurds are fighting against ISIS or Al Qaeda, the more power to them. But they must be advised that they have no prayer for autonomy or anything else in Syria; that they should not send their young men and women to die against SAR.

In Iraq, their autonomy is written into the Iraqi Constiitution but someone has to disabuse them that they can become independent; they cannot - Arabs of Iraq will eventually crush them and Iranians will economically blockade them. Fanning those passions will cause more deaths and more destruction, largely borne by Kurds.

This discussion started by my comments about PKK, I stand by them. What has it wrought in Southwestern Turkey - for Kurd or Turk alike? Does any sane person think that there is not an Army of Mehmets ready to be called to go kill Kurds?

DAESH or ISIS is not a threat against Iran (or Israel) but it is one against every single Sunni Muslim state - as well as India and the Russian Federation.

Baluch Resistance Movements? That is laughable. Let's not kid ourselves who is funding them and who is sheltering them; Sunni Muslims in hostile states to Iran.

You have never been to Baluchistan; everything that has been built there is due to the Islamic Republic - during the Monarchy period they did not have even drinking water; muddy water from Spring flash floods was their best water all-year-long.

For the imprisoned Kurds and the convicted and executed ones in Iran, you have to consider it case by case. Not every claim of innocence is credible. You might have a small case there; I do not know. A few weeks a group of young Iranian men entering from Iraqi Kurdistan were surrounded and killed. One has to ask: "For what?" Their political leaders are sitting in Erbil or in London or Paris or Washington DC, sending idealistic young men to their deaths.

All for nothing.


Eric, as far a I know The Iranian Kurds that is not true,like many small tribes they may have some hostility to strangers at first, they are very tribal and many tribes within the Iranian Kurdestan alone likes of Zangneh, Sanjabi, Ardlans, Kakavand, etc. these family' loyalty is like the mafia' loyalty, it rests first and foremost with the family and the Khan of the Tribe, like in the families of Talabani's or Barezanies. Their biggest problem is lack of unity and accepting a leader or a common cause a common guide due to their extreme tribalism. They are mainly mountain people, and best at fighting in mountains of their own region, historically they are not good lowland warriors.

mike allen

Eric -

Low caste people? Who are the high caste people in your estimation?

I realize that a hundred years ago some Kurds were accomplices in the mass murder of your grandfather's people. Tell me, were they considered low caste before 1915? Or only after? The current generation of Kurds have acknowledged the Armenian genocide and apologized for their forefathers crimes. Something the Turks and the Turkish nation has never done. Save your insults for those who better deserve them.

What do your family elders tell you about the Azeri and Nagorno-Karabakh?

mike allen

Babak Makkinejad -

You have a powerful argument. And you are correct in many of your statements. They will probably not get a Kurdish State in the near future. They'll never get autonomy in Iran and Turkey. And even without granting Kurds autonomy, Iran and Turkey will never countenance what the Colonel calls a 'multi-culti' society. Still that does not make their struggle foolish, and does not mean it makes no sense.

I disagree about Kurd aspirations in Syria and Iraq. They have autonomy now and they may getn to keep it if they play their cards right.

You are right about the Jundallah Baluch group in Iran. They are terrorists led by a headchopper and are probably funded by the Gulfies or perhaps even Israel.

You do not mention the Azeri National Resistance Organization in Iran. As far as I know they avoid violence and good on them for that if true. But they do struggle for cultural and human rights and fundamental liberties. And their non-violent activists have been imprisoned for speaking of it.

You mention: 'A few weeks a group of young Iranian men entering from Iraqi Kurdistan were surrounded and killed.' It happens all the time, not just last week. And many of the killed and or detained are simple smugglers carrying 50 or 60 kilos of trade goods on their backs, and NOT PDKI or PAK guerrillas


What else? You could potentially add the charge of personal enrichment under the cover of jingoistic brinkmanship. Some on this forum already pointed to the reckless policies of invading Syria and Iraq. President Erdoğan's aim here might be to return to Turkey's orbit some areas long close to the hearts of both Kemalist nationalists and the Islamists.
These areas (as defined by the Misaq-i Melli) were within the territory that the Mudros armistice agreed on in 1918, but cut off by the treaty of Sèvres, which Turkish nationalists never recognized. Taking in Syrian refugees was also seen by the core AKP as replenishing Turkey with more traditional and religious people, steps are underway to make some of them Turkish citizens. This would mean that he is appealing to two distinct groups in Turkey on a unifying issue. By promising to "make Turkey great again" and deflecting attention from his failure to develop the economy. I think he is not seriously contemplating integrating these areas into Turkey, but it's likely they are serving as useful foreign policy foils.
Receiving loud criticism from Europe or Russia serves for the President also as justification for suppressing dissent within. He can conveniently label any critic as a foreign agent.
On the economy: I think others here are more competent on that, but I observe that many Turkish textile factories long working for European market have outsourced production to Pakistan, the Philippines and Bangladesh. The construction industry has run dry, and manufacturing would need better access to Europe and Russia for high-value products (Beko being one of the few success stories in Europe).
But the President has understood that a closer integration into the European market could only be had at the price of diversifying the Turkish government, calming tensions with neighbours and a solution over Cyprus. This first request naively pushed by European expansion professionals as a “stabilizing” advice for Turkey is in reality a “deal-braker” as the President would be asked to share his power that he just monpolised after pushing out the Gulen followers from December 2013 on, and the Davutoğlu faction in the AKP in 2016. In his mind this would not lead to more “stability” but to the opposite, and therefore he sees behind the project of a European expansion always the spectre of “regime change”.
Externally, his calculation was sound until the 2015, as he could cover himself in the region as a NATO and Israel ally. The close relationships with doubtful friends had no consequences. I think I heard that President Obama once got upset with Mr. Fidan at dinner, but there were never any serious repercussions. Europeans kept quiet after they got flooded in 2015 with refugees and are watching when the spigot is turned on again.
All along the way there are signs that maybe the family of the President profited personally. Back to the Gold for Oil trade with Iran (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-12/iran-secret-gold-and-the-mystery-trade-boosting-turkish-exports) when the alliance with the Gulenists broke up over what seems to have been the distribution of the spoils (http://www.rferl.org/a/turkey-erdogan-corruption-control/25278263.html). This element of personal enrichment extended probably to the sale of Syrian and Iraqi hydrocarbons to the benefit of ISIL. When in a debate at the UN Security Council at the level of Ministers of Finance, both the United States and the Russian Federation chose to talk about financing of ISIL by sales of hydrocarbons (http://www.un.org/en/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=S/PV.7587), Turkey reacted with an angry letter against the baseless accusations (http://www.un.org/en/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=S/2015/1029). This evolved in an interesting public exchange of letters at the Security Council, one of which brough in Mr. Yildirim's IHH foundation (http://www.un.org/en/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=S/2016/94) and another shed light on some FTF activities (http://www.un.org/en/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=S/2016/143). Bilal Erdoğan denied the baseless accusations (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-turkey-russia-idUSKBN0TR15I20151208) already at the start. These letters continued until the relationship with Russia was patched up to terms we don't know exactly. In the Ermitage there are some magnificent presents by Ottomans, that then served to seal various peace treaties in the 18th and 19th centuries (diamond-encrusted saddles, sabers and the like).


"On the other hand you cannot downplay demography. Those countries/cultures where there are not enough children born are doomed to disappear. As simple as that. And this factor is obviously on Erdogan's side."

Debatable. Increasing population without the economic means to sustain it is a recipe for desaster. Look at Pakistan or to a lesser extend India.

A country with a low domestic birth rate can allow immigration and can spend resources to integrate the new citizens.


So there's no plausible Republican talent other than people like Mnuchin?



"when distracted...The one executed in Oorfa was, indeed, a great grandfather (my grandmother's father)"

Yes, caught my attention. Correction increases attention, btw.

Apart from the fact that your expertise of the 'baksheesh mentality' kind of 'frames' your earlier comment.

Eric Newhill

Mike Allen,

I'm really not saying anything different than Kooshy and Babak. Kurds were considered low caste because they are extremely tribal/family oriented (like "mafia", per Kooshy)mountain people. They're hillbillies. They failed to establish a unified Kurdish entity and they failed to ever establish anything approximating a high civilization. Armenians did these things. Persians did them. Even the Turks managed a veneer of civilization by copying Europe - however "sickly" - and allowing Armenians and Persians to build for them and be an intellectual trust to get it started and keep it maintained.

It is a mistake to think that 1915 was an aberration in history. Rather, it was the culmination of a long history. The Kurds were what they are long before 1915. As were the Turks.

Babak Makkinejad

Are Kurds somehow more deserving of autonomy than anyone else on that part of the world?

In Syria - Alawites, Druze, Armenians, Chechens, Arabs do not have autonomy. Why should Kurds?

A struggle with zero chance of success, every step of which carries risk to life and limb is foolish, in my opinion.

Azeri National Resistance? Another laughable name.

Iran was created by the Azeri Turkish tribes. Who then proceeded to destroy what they themselves had created because they could not agree among the various tribes who should be king. Yet their disproportionate presence and influence in the state has remained to this day.

Ah yes, Cultural and Human Rights. What would that be in this specific case of Azeris? After all, there is another Azeri country, called Azerbaijan Republic, that is relentlessly suppresses and jails non-Azeris there; among them the ancient Iranian people called Talesh.

Yes, they are all unarmed smugglers...every last one of them...

Listening to you, it is evident how successfully the wily Middle Easterners is manipulating the naïve Faranji.


if the quality of your vision feed is high enough ...

not sure. But for what it's worth. ... I have this memory concerning the use of other party's (military) uniforms. True or fiction?

But no matter what, that wouldn't rule out 'the facts' about control of the location versus new incoming information ... which as you suggest seems to be interpretation of surveillance only:

BUT: I didn't get further then this:
The individuals wore a mix of traditional wear, civilian attire and military style clothing that lacked uniformity.

Babak Makkinejad

No no no.

You, in Germany, cannot integrate Syrian and other Muslims - you will be creating a permanent and separate ethnicity in Germany that is not German but Muslim. This will cause centuries of trouble for Germany.

mike allen

Eric -

The small Armenian community in Iraq today is for the most part in the Kurdistan Region. Some there fight with the Kurdish Peshmerga against Daesh, or have Pesh blessing to raise their own militia to protect their own villages. Some also live in Kurdish cities and have schools or churches in Erbil, Dohuk, Zakho and Kirkuk. There is a reserved seat for an Armenian representative in the 111 seat Kurdistan Region Parliament even though their numbers (< 20K out of a KRG population or 5.5M) are too low to elect one of their own to such a spot.

Many Armenians have lived there for a hundred years or more. But the Armenians of Baghdad and other areas in the middle or south of Iraq have moved there in the last decade. They moved to the Kurdish Region for safety, because some Armenian institutions and churches in Baghdad and central Iraq were bombed, and some Armenians there kidnapped or killed. Some of that was by Sunnis, but some also likely by Shia in retribution for Iraqi-Armenian support of Saddaam. Iraqi-Armenians regard the Kurdish areas to be much safer to live in.

If being family oriented or being a hillbilly means low caste as you seem to think, and if being a Kurd is considered low caste, then count me in as being low caste also. I welcome that epithet.


Deuxieme Bureau, army intelligence at the time?

Eric Newhill

Mike Allen,
I think that, as a Marine, you appreciate and romanticize a small group of scrappy and courageous fighters. I understand and appreciate that too. I'll give the Kurds that much.

mike allen

Babak Makkinejad -

Thank you for your response.

You asked why Kurds should have autonomy in Syria, when Alawites, Druze, Armenians, Chechens, and Arabs do not. Why not is what I ask? The Syrian Kurds have been willing to fight for it and many have been martyred for it. They stood up to Daesh in Kobani and elsewhere and are now standing up to the Turkish Army and the Turkish led headchopper militias. Most of that was without any help at all from the Syrian Government until very recently in the last month or so. And in some cases in the past their struggle against Daesh was confounded by Damascus policies.

They are not asking for independence, only the right to run their own affairs. And I dispute your contention that there is no autonomy for Druze and Alawite. The Druze in Syria have had autonomy for many decades, although it is unofficial and unrecognized by Damascus. And the Alawites have also had their own brand of self-determination for at least 50 years.

I was aware of the suppression of non-Azeris in the former Azerbaijan SSR, but was not aware of the Talesh. Are they related to the Gilaki?

Regarding the wily Middle Easterners manipulation of naïve Faranji: Yes it happens! Arabs, Israelis, and Iranians are much more adept at it than the Kurds. Americans do have some wily, scheming people, but they tend to evolve towards shady businesses and crooked politics. We need to learn the secrets of how it is done internationally.


Eric Newhill

USMC strength is 220,000. Is that small? pl

Babak Makkinejad

Historically, religious sects had been autonomous in the conduct of their personal affairs in the Muslim lands. But they did not have political autonomy in the sense that you describe: carving out a piece of this country or that country and to set up, in effect, a fiefdom.

The Muslim populations did not enjoy any autonomy - geographical or otherwise. There has not been any type of self-government in the Levant since the demise of the Greco-Roman cities there. The legal doctrines and structures for it does not exist in Islam. It might be grafted into the existing constitutional frameworks but has not been done except in a few cases, such as in Iran.

And then there is the whole issue of implementation and substance behind such constitutional arrangements and formulations; will they endure?

The self-government of Euro-Americans rests on an almost continuous 2500-year old tradition. None of that exists East of the Diocletian Line.

You also seem to be suggesting that since some Kurds in Syria have fought against ISIS or Al Qaeda and its affiliates, they deserve territorial autonomy from the Syrian State. By the same token, the Syrian State could reject the basis of that claim and send its tanks and infantry to roll up any such pretensions. And I believe they will.

US herself crushed the CSA which wanted to go her own way.

And in Israel, why does not US stand for autonomy for Palestinians?

And in Italy, why does not Italy grant autonomy to the Lombard League?

And in Spain, when will we see a free Catalonia?

And in UK, when is the Perfidious Albion going to grant freedom to the 3 occupied counties and make Ireland united and free?

mike allen

Babak Makkinejad -

Syrian Kurds have not asked for statehood, only for a federal system, which by the way has also been recommended by Assad's ally the Russians. Will Syria send its tanks and infantry into Kurdish Rojava to quash such a move and go against the wishes of their benefactor? Or are the Russians just playing mind games with the Kurds? The Syrians may consider it a benefit to have a Kurdish buffer between themselves and their north. I believe the greater danger to Kurdish autonomy is from their neighbor to the north as long as Erdogan reigns.

The Kurds in Iraq already have a federal system. And they want full independence. Will Iran decide to oppose that militarily?

The US has stood for Palestinian autonomy since the time of Jimmy Carter. Reagan changed that policy. Clinton brought it back. And I believe Obama and even Bush Junior have continued that policy. They have not however recognized Palestine Statehood, which is a mistake I believe.

At least we agree that Albion is perfidious. Sly and sneaky Sassenachs according to my Grandmother.


Mr. Newhill, your ancestors memories of Kurds be honored. But for the present you might want to have a look at the recent apologies issued by Kurds of the BDP (http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/09/turkey-kurds-seek-armenian-forgiveness.html) not only in Diyarbakir, but also in Mardin where the Kurdish MP Ahmet Türk, then the co-mayor of Februniye Akyol made public apologies also in 2013 (Akyol happens to be a Christian woman elected with support of the Kurds).
While this is not representative of all Kurds in Turkey, I observe a rethink among the Syrian Kurds, too. I did not find anything in the Iraqi and Iranian discussions, but as I remember well from Iran, there was no genocide, and Armenians were very much welcome at their annual pilgrimage to St. Thaddaeus Church a.k.a. Kara Kalisa.
The PKK debate rests on the realisation by Ocalan that the mono-ethnically-defined nation state (ulus-devlet) does not work, and that rules out a Kurdish copz of the model. This seems to me a parallel development to the Kurds publicly acknowledging their role in the Armenian genocide.
As to sources, I'd refer you to the 2005 KCK document in Turkish under (https://rojbas1.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/koma-civakc3aan-kurdistan.pdf). The Arabic, English and Persian versions I knew of in the internet are no longer under their previous links.
Of course my contribution should not be misunderstood as making any smaller the authoritarian character of the PKK and the almost totalitarian reactions against internal criticism.
The Kurdish realisation of having committed a genocide is out, I am confident that more conclusions will follow.
Btw Ahmet Türk is in jail since last week (http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/court-arrests-former-mardin-mayor-ahmet-turk-.aspx?pageID=238&nID=106518&NewsCatID=509).

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