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22 November 2016

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mike allen

Origin -

Well said! But pls remember that Trump's tweets are just smoke and mirrors to get the MSM talking about them instead of his unethical business practices, his bogus charity foundation, and his sucking up to Wall Street banksters now that he has been elected. It is just more of the same-old same-old but using new technitronics the media loves. The press has been bamboozled again. Ignore his tweets, focus on his actions.

Green Zone Café

Well, accusing him of "raping" is adopting the frame of his and my, maybe yours, adversary, isn't it?

Tel

You are effectively saying that freedom of speech = freedom to tell lies.

Fair enough, yes the act of telling lies is protected; but no one is protected from the consequences of the lies they tell. This especially applies to people in positions of trust and responsibility.

David Habakkuk

Origin,

You write:

‘Lemur you must not know many liberals, or perhaps better now called, the Coasters. Few have any knowledge of the philosophers. What they do know is that they live in peaceable, diverse communities including all stripes of people. They love the milieu and they are prospering financially. I don’t want to be overly harsh, but if you are not prospering, move or learn to run robots. There are lots of open jobs in the Coaster areas.’

I have seen fewer clearer examples of the condescension on the part of ‘liberals’ – or what votaries of a creed in which I use strongly to believe has degenerated into – which is largely responsible alike for Brexit and the Trump victory, and could even conceivably end up causing a second American civil war.

As it happens, I live in a ‘peaceable, diverse community’in West London. But we do not include ‘all stripes of people’.

The Indian lawyers with whom we have dinner, and discuss which schools are appropriate for their children, are people who are different, but also want to share very much of our culture. Likewise, the Muslim man who the daughter of another neighbour is marrying shares a great deal of our culture.

When however immigrants from the rural areas of Pakistan come into places like Rotherham the situation is quite different. Currently, a bit under half of British mosques are Deobandi.

(See http://www.spectator.co.uk/2014/06/who-runs-our-mosques/ .)

The tensions which result have been visibly building up for decades. However, the kind of people who work for the BBC and the ‘Financial Times’ didn’t want to know thirty years ago, and haven’t wised up since. Increasingly it has come to seem to me that they make the pre-1789 French aristocracy look ‘ear-to-the-ground’, and ‘in-touch’.

As the article to which I have linked brings out, the situation in relation to Muslims is different in the United States. But it is generally true that ‘multi-culturalism’ is at its easiest, when it does not have to confront real and radical cultural difference.

With regard to immigration from Eastern Europe, of course people in streets like the one in which I live benefit from it. The British middle classes haven’t had servants since 1945 – they’re loving it. (There is a very complicated story here, but simplistic ‘multiculturalist’ cliché does not help.)

When you tell me that few of your kind have ‘any knowledge of the philosophers’ I can readily believe you. As it happens, the kind of concrete matters I am talking about are becoming involved with a revival of philosophical arguments against liberalism about which you and people like you may indeed be ignorant, but which have a long history and are not simply to be treated with condescension.

If you really think that the kind of ‘conservative’ ideas put forward by Lemur and Tyler are simply the product of the resentments of people who are ‘not prospering’ and an appropriate response is to tell them to ‘move, or learn to run robots’, you simply do not know what is happening.

Moreover, it is a fairly basic point about human nature that condescension tends to make people very angry indeed.

Fred

Tyler,

The hasbara have been given new marching orders or haven't you caught on to the change in tone from the dynamic duo over the last few days. The establishment is in a panic still. Why else would there be all the "Actung! Trump orders up the Zyklon B" posts on the net.

Fred

Origin,

Is this your legal advice to news organizations that broadcast over the airwaves under license from the government?

Origin

Johnson R.
It seems to me that the purpose for Bannon's platform providing was provocation and license. First, he gave a variety of fringe groups a well-trafficked site, and second, he gave them license to speak. In such a close campaign, getting a sizeable number of kooks vehemently performing for you is helpful, especially if those kooks can express a discomfit experienced by a broader audience. There has been a long held tacit, meaning unspoken, disconnection between the realities of a sizeable group of the population who really had not invented verbal tools to express their understandings. Platforming the kooks provided verbal tools to bring those thoughts held by the broader, disaffected group into expression. It worked great!

Kooshy

So if understand correctly for you is ok if one party or even one person has a bigger control and share of mind forming instruments and win the elections ? What kind of democracy is that?
In this elections American voters resented and rejected the media, IMO one of the reasons Clinton was defeated was her campaign' abusing use of MSM in her benefit and against Trump and Bernie during primery.

Origin

No, both would be free speech.

When one adopts a free speech environment, it is nearly certain it will include jokes, lies, profanity, and rudeness. The question is how the target of the speech responds. Did the hearer learn something? Can that person make a change in the speaker or not by the response.

However, with respect to Pence, there is a long and sour relationship between him and the LGBT community. He came into their territory and set himself up as fair game. To his credit, he responded well and appropriately.

LeeG

Yes I do. That many network news organizations provide a product for customers and venue for advertisers that goes through filters doesn't mean they straight up lie. Trumps whine and condemnation of those he got miles of coverage from is hysterical because it's exactly what he wants, attention.

Origin

Mike Allen,

They may be smoke and mirrors, but in aggregate, they expose the character of the man.

Valissa

"Unfortunately, understanding how virtuoso his campaign was does not make it much easier to assess what Trump is likely to do, confronted by the concrete decisions a President has to take."

I quite agree! And I think your insights on Trump's background in reality TV are relevant as well. However, I have no personal drive or need to "assess what Trump is likely to do." This is just one benefit, IMO, of being non-partisan (or anti-partisan). As a student of history I am quite content to wait and observe the Trump presidency as it unfolds and then, once I have actual evidence to assess after he's been in office for a bit, maybe I will be able to formulate some theories and predictions. I find the need to try and predict what Trump might do, though natural and normal, produces articles that are often quite entertaining (I admit to an offbeat sense of humor), with the exception of the irrational and primal scream type of emotional fear mongering and hysteria that some throw out.

The MSM has been wrong about Trump repeatedly, and many in the various forms of alternative media have had the same problem. I have observed very little intellectual capability to generate useful insights about him, and I think this is because most people's worldviews are rather fixed and limited by the conventions of our time... which Trump is challenging. My favorite thing about his existence ;)

As I have tried to tell some of my liberal friends, Trump is the most liberal/independent president the Republican party has put into office in a long time. He's not a social conservative (he used to be a Democrat), though he will have to give some of those types positions in his administration. He's not beholden to the Republican establishment they despise. By any rational assessment, liberals should be slightly pleased with this aspect. But instead many are full of fear and loathing, courtesy of the never before seen level of MSM propaganda, and they appear to hate him even more than establishment Republicans. I used to be a liberal, partly because I thought liberals were more understanding and tolerant of differences... and more compassionate. Bwahahahaha...

With the great popularity of psychology and personal growth among liberals, I have been quite surprised at the collective lack of ability to confront the "monsters of the id" within themselves and instead project it all onto Trump as a reasonable response to how horrible they think he is. Please note, I think there are liberals that understand this, especially at this blog, and hopefully they will be the ones to rebuild their coalition into something that's more geared to all Americans and not centered on political correctness.

In times of trouble some people find comfort in hate and fear. – Odo (DS9, Season 7 #551)

steve

Waste, fraud and abuse. We already know what happens when people campaign on those issues.

Steve

Valissa

It is a very popular campaign theme around the world. It is a rather timeless meme as all societies that have any kind of wealth or resources have this problem.

As a realist and non-partisan and student of history, I always have extremely low expectations of ALL political promises and goals. I am also aware that many people do believe politicians when they say such things. It's right up there with desire for HOPE and CHANGE which Trump won on ... same thing the Obama campaign won on, and that Bill Clinton won on, etc, etc.

The Romans recognized this as well...

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur.
--"The world wants to be deceived, so let it be deceived."

Babak Makkinejad

Look at the history of the Franciscan Order in the lands that became Germany.

You should know these things; are you sure you attended a Gymnasium?

Are you even German?

The Twisted Genius

There's some surprising news out of the Trump-NYT meeting. He addressed the white supremacist conference in Washington DC saying, “I disavow and condemn them.” and “It's not a group I want to energize.” That's got to be a kick in their fashy stones. I don't know if this is Trump throwing cold water on the alt-right or just a move to keep them at a slow simmer rather than a rolling boil. Time will tell.

He's also moving away from his notion that man-induced climate change is a Chinese hoax. In the same NYT meeting he said he's keeping an open mind about whether to pull the US out of the Paris Climate Treaty. He said, “I think there is some connectivity. Some, something. It depends on how much.” I find this hopeful, but, again, it's way too early to tell. I figure we'll know the winners and losers before next Summer. Until then, enjoy the show.

BTW, Origin, good discussion. Go 1A. Go free press (and bought press). Go Wikileaks and whistleblowers.

ex-PFC Chuck

It depends on what you mean by "collaborate." IIRC there were many instances exposed by Wikileaks in which semi-final copies of stories were submitted to Clintonville not for the purpose of fact checking but for approval of the tone and thrust of the writing, and an excessive willingness to change the copy to please.

Kooshy

Mike, I don't know if Trump will suck up to wall street' banisters or not, but to be fair, IMO no one, in recent history of this country has sucked the Wall Street banksters more than the last two democratic party's presidents meaning Clinton and Obama, do you agree?

Origin

"I have seen fewer clearer examples of the condescension on the part of ‘liberals’ – or what votaries of a creed in which I use strongly to believe has degenerated into – which is largely responsible alike for Brexit and the Trump victory, and could even conceivably end up causing a second American civil war."

I accept your criticism and if I have offended Tyler or Lemur by getting a little militant, I apologize. There is a certain amount of anger against those who chose Trump because I see that choice as being really harmful to me personally. Some of us Coasters are having a hard time seeing the US lose its global leadership that seems to be evaporating under Trump.

However, the main point intended was not condescension, it was to state the fact that, economic realities do change and mobility is important. The country is full of opportunity and either you have to go get it or invent it in your own place. The old Move west young man, may now mean return to the Sunny southeast.

The converse of condescension seen on the right is gloating. It is just as bad. What is important is that we keep communicating. That way we are all educated and humbled.

Origin

The beauty of conversation is that it tends to expose the lies and the liars are prone to lose their following quite quickly. Truth fairly presented is the best way to carry a point. If a point cannot be carried with truth, it probably should fail and it usually will.

Thanks for being here.

Generalfeldmarschall von Hindenburg

"White Nationalism" is more than a little ridiculous. Talking about a lot of people with a pretty wide variety of backgrounds that could be called 'white'. Many of whom have ancestors who were hunting one another down like animals not so long ago. A hundred years or so ago, Irish wouldn't have been accepted into a 'White Nationalist' milieu. Nowadays a lot of their descendants are on the cutting edge of dingbat tribalism.

As to "Hamilton" it seems to me that Pence was trolling those people. He gets to look like a reasonable guy on every level and the cast behaved like chumps.

Jack

I second you Sir on "Go Wikileaks and whistleblowers". They are the ones taking the risks and paying the terrible price to shine the spotlight. The press are mostly bought and paid for and focused on the memes pushed by their owners as well as sensationalism to drive ratings.

Origin

Who was trolling who? The fake news has it that Biden gave him the tickets.

Love your term "dingbat tribalism" that is much clearer than white nationalist. https://thinkprogress.org/thinkprogress-alt-right-policy-b04fd141d8d4#.d7mh3h5ko

Valissa

"Trump is not a savior, he is an oligarch and his interests diverge from the interests of most citizens. He will lead the flock of his kind."

Origin I think you are 100% correct in this. Where we probably differ is that I think Hillary would be no different. Perhaps a slightly different set of oligarchs, but essentially similar. I think many liberals know this and perhaps assume their oligarchs are somehow better just because they claim the liberal mantle and are PC.

The US has been a plutocratic oligarchy for some time now. There's a reason I'm now a third party voter. Just take a look at the Clinton family net worth since Bill left office, and which jumped again after Hillary left being SoS. No doubt Obama is equally looking forward to making the big bucks doing "good works" with his rich buddies as well. I do not blame any of them for taking advantage of the system, as that is human nature as well.

Had Hillary won it would not have been unreasonable to be concerned about the role of Bill Clinton in the White House, with all his rich friends and highly paid speeches and connections around the world via the Clinton Foundation and more. While I do think the Clinton Foundation is doing some good work, I think claims of corruption are also true given human nature and the urge to help out one's "friends" which the rich are very good at doing. And don't get me going on all the corruption involved in the so-called rebuilding of Haiti. But it is human nature for ambitious egotistical people to wheel and deal and to rationalize their "sins" as ultimately being for the greater good. Which Trump will do as well.

And Chelsea is very involved in the Clinton Foundation, and would have had input to her mom the president as well. Not so different from Trump's kids, and they are all friends with each other.

Notice that Trump is not eager to prosecute Hillary because he thinks she's a good person and has been through enough. What a monster! (/snark) But this is just another example of oligarchs sticking together.

Hillary would have been a very pro-war president as well as continuing to be a very good friends with both Wall Street and the Military Industrial complex. Does this really represent the ideals of the Democratic Party that you can believe in? No wonder she ran against Trump and used hate speech about him and his followers more than touting her own merits. I was big Hillary supporter in 2007-8 and she ran a very different campaign back then (and I was more naïve about power and money back then too). I think having finally become one the of oligarchs herself changed her, and not in a good way IMO. But I expect that is true of many of them.

Trump will have to figure out how to deal with the pressures from various big money groups as well, and will no doubt get sucked into at least some of the agendas presented to him, if not all of them. Trump is a deal maker not an ideologue, and he'll have to make deals to get along with various factions of the elite establishment. The Borg is very powerful! However, the Borg is not a complete monoculture and if the Realists can get back in power under Trump and cut back somewhat on the military adventurism and related coup games that would be a small improvement.

I have very low expectations of how much change any president can accomplish. After all, once they are elected they ARE the establishment.

Fred

Generalfeldmarschall von Hindenburg,

"it seems to me that Pence was trolling those people."

Perhaps he decided that the strategy of that draft dodging American convert to Islam, Muhammad Ali, would be a good one to follow: "Rope a dope". The diaper pinned safe zone anti-bullying CTR-L is out in force against Pepe, Harambe and the left defined "alt-right". Meanwhile Trump, who won't take office for almost two months has managed to ... dress down the media executives and send out a tweet! How Deplorable of him.

The latest thing to outrage the left is that some folks over the weekend were shouting that supremacist chant "Hail! Hail!" at the top of their lungs. Of course like Governor Pence few of those Americans from Indiana were happy about that because their Hoosiers were crushed by the Wolverines 20-10. Well, at least now they know how Hilary felt.

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