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12 July 2016

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kao_hsien_chih

It used to be that the West was known worldwide for putting women on pedestal (one of first US ambassadors/ministers to China justified not kowtowing to the emperor by saying that he only bows before God and women, I think--it might be apocryphal, but I'm sticking to it). What happened?

Western liberals might have thought that getting women off the pedestal was "liberating" them...but in a way, it may also have made them look "cheap" and "undignified," which probably contributed to the perceptions like that.

Harry


Not a refutation but a counter argument. Black on black crime is much reduced as is all crime in cities like NY or LA. However anecdotally deaths from police shooting appear to be on the rise in the same locations. I say appear because I do not have reliable data and I have read that none is collated. Tyler can probably comment and correct me.

Death from a random interaction with the police is not something any community is likely to be sanguine about even if the community in general benefits from greater police activity. If I lose one child to such an interaction due to "error" I would not forgive it. It is not just.

The impression is that the police are happy to accept a certain number of "accidents" to reduce the risks associated with serving these communities. That number would not be considered acceptable by other communities in America.

As the non-white population increases this is likely to cause increasing friction unless we find another solution. However I don't think this is a new problem in the US. The country is "rougher" than Europe and is used to more aggressive policing

Babak Makkinejad

Your understanding is wrong.

4 Afghans raped this young French woman who was hiking in mountains around Tehran some time ago; 2 were caught and sentenced to death, 2 have fled Iran to Afghanistan.

A fifth Afghan actually helped the rape victim.

I doubt that the Afghans were motivated by anything that you describe.

The 19-year old village school teacher, on her way back from a Friday visit to another fellow young woman school teacher in the next village, is caught, raped and her skull crushed with a rock by two local men - in this case Iranians. Death sentences were handed out and carried out.

turcopolier

Harry
" ... and is used to more aggressive policing." That is true. I am required to watch a lot of European TV and if the cop operas are anything like reality, then behavior and language directed at police that would result in violence is much more tolerated there. We are rough people in general. the Left is trying to breed it out of us. pl

David Habakkuk

Bill Herschel,

We are dealing with different facets of the same problem – the inability of contemporary Western élites, including much of the ‘right’ as well as much of the ‘left’, to recognise difference.

This reached a peak of absurdity in Samantha Power’s ‘My Remarks to the Ukrainian People’ last November, when she quoted Mikhail Bulgakov, describing him as ‘Kyiv’s native son’.

(See http://www.huffingtonpost.com/samantha-power/my-remarks-to-the-ukraini_b_7564164.html .)

Anyone who had either read Bulgakov, or had actually talked to people from Ukraine when they weren’t playing ‘fool the stupid sahib’, would know that there is no ‘Ukrainian people’.

So Lviv was, and is, a Habsburg city – in some ways more so than Vienna, as it was not fought over in the war. The ‘Galician’ culture of the area – portrayed as a force of primitive barbarism in Bulgakov’s ‘The White Guard’ – is different from that of Kiev, which is is in turn different from that of the Donbass and Crimea.

It is generally true of human beings that they are very good at remembering the wrongs done to them, rather less good at remembering the wrongs they have done to others.

A predictable result in Ukraine is that it has always been true that, if you say the wrong thing about Stepan Bandera in a bar in the wrong part of the country late at night, you are quite likely to end up dead, or at least seriously injured.

Happy coexistence on a basis of equality between people with different cultures, and different historical memories, is not a ‘natural’ state, be it in Ukraine, Britain, or the United States.

A quite different situation obtains where there is interchange between cultures in a context where one clearly holds political power, as in medieval Andalusia; where members of other cultures want to assimilate to a dominant culture, as was commonly the case in the Roman Empire; or where they are subsumed into a common ideologically-based system.

And this is what appears to be meant by the notion that the United States is a ‘propositional nation’.

A difficulty is that this is precisely what the old Soviet Union was.

One may find the ‘propositions’ on which the United States is supposedly based rather more appealing than those on which its old Cold War antagonist was founded (irony alert.)

It is however not clear that the United States can simply avoid one of the problems on which the Soviet system foundered – that in terms of the ‘propositions’ which were supposed to ensure the happy coexistence of the inhabitants, a clear understanding of group tensions both in the external world and internal actually becomes very difficult.

Seamus Padraig

Bingo!

Seamus Padraig

From The Independent, here's the full story:

EARLY IN the morning of 14 September 1793, George, Lord Macartney, the first British ambassador ever to visit the Chinese court, entered the imperial tent in Jehol, the Manchu capital, to see the emperor Qianlong.

As one, a thousand demonstrated their submission to the Son of Heaven by performing the ceremony of the kowtow. Three times they fell to their knees, and three times on each occasion they touched their foreheads to the ground. Macartney, however, refused to kowtow. He would bend one knee, he said, to his sovereign; both knees he would bend only to his God. Three times, with the greatest politeness, he went down on one knee. And three times, in the course of each genuflexion, in rhythm with the mandarins, he respectfully bowed his head. But he flatly refused to touch his forehead to the ground.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/book-review-the-sacred-kowtow-godfrey-hodgson-on-how-chinese-ceremony-and-british-arrogance-led-to-a-1474125.html

Babak Makkinejad

women are "easy in America as I heard it from Western Europeans...

turcopolier

rjj

"Loose women" in their countries are those who do not conform to accepted social standards there. They are treated as whores whether they are or not. pl

turcopolier

Babak

We always lead the way. pl

Seamus Padraig

Very perceptive commentary, David. Thanks.

As far as propositional nations are concerned, I would like to know: What, at present, is the proposition behind the USA? After all, if there is no fixed proposition behind the propositional nation, or if it is sufficiently vague, then the whole thing can easily degenerate into an authoritarian cult manipulated by the leadership--even if it's supposed to be 'democratic'.

kao_hsien_chih

I think the study is consistent with the sense I have that the problem is that the lethal police-involved violence is on the rise in general, not that it is directed at any particular race/ethnicity--b/c it really isn't. I'm being very careful with the wording since the problem puts police on the receiving end as well as the giving end of the lethal violence with increasing frequency, or at least so it seems. While the police is becoming more mlitarized and is more willing to use violence, they are also increasingly operating in an environment where they are being targeted.

I am curious, though, where this fits in the long run. There was a big uptick in anti-police violence in 1970s, a big surge in crime in 1980s, more active policing and a big dip in crime rates nationally in 1990s and beyond (were these connected? opinions vary and I don't have enough information to draw any conclusion there...) Back in 1980s, I don't think there was as much "police violence"--cops tended to pull back rather than take on too much risk, and the citizens suffered from the crime wave in their (relative) absence. Are we to see a repeat of the 1980s crime wave soon?

DC

Sir: No, I simply think you used the word "whore" too casually to explain the cultural difference. "Slut" doesn't do it either, as sexual predators are still subject to criminal sanction, for committing their offenses, even if committed against a slut. There must be something more to explain this culture's desire to commit the sex crime. I'm not expert in the Koran, but I would suspect it has something to do with is the allowance for rape against non-believers (infidels).

kao_hsien_chih

The diplomat who added "and women" was definitely an American, not Macartney. I can't remember the context, though.

johnA

This study flatly contradicts your assertion of equal use of "force".

Read it and you will see.

There are other problems with it that I won't go into other than why does one need a secret donor to accomplish this study???

Also, for the record, I do believe that "fatal force" may be employed at the rate the study suggests and it would make perfect sense.
After all, one would need to believe that most officers would have little regard for their own and their families welfare in order to shoot as a default position.

turcopolier

DC

"I would suspect it has something to do with is the allowance for rape against non-believers (infidels). ' There is no such "allowance." You are a bigoted and ignorant fool. Do you imagine that I care about your critique of my use of words? fool. I thought you were merely a social science type. And there is much more to Islam than the Qur'an. pl

kao_hsien_chih

The difference for United States was that we were never very honest about our "propositions," at least until recently.

There was always the presumption that there was a dominant and rather inward-looking and parochial culture that everyone took for granted is the norm in United States and that any and every one who comes would assimilate and blend into it. It was not until very recently that the alleged American ideal became so secularized and cosmopolitanized. I don't think the old provincialism that dominated American culture was such a bad thing: cosmopolitanism is always the reserve of the aristocracy, and by forcing even would be aristocrats to be provincial, American provincialism kept American politicians more grounded and "democratic."

One might say that the same was true with USSR, but only through deceit. The official position in Moscow was always that of universalistic cosmopolitanism, without any formal sanction for provincialism. Clever politicians still kept one foot rather clandestinely back in their homeland, so to speak (the Aliyev's of the world) as an insurance, and when USSR fell, that worked out well for them. So the paradox: in a political universe where there is insistently no "localism," everyone who was clever was carefully building up local apparatus of power for themselves, far more than, in a sense, a country where. more or less officially, "all politics was local." The entire political order was built on a lying paradox.

In the last few decades, the universalistic cosmopolitanism, a rather alien concept really, has come to be the unifying creed of the American aristocracy who fancy themselves enlightened because they read whatever 21st century equivalent of Voltaire--but are as authoritarian as Frederick II (yes, an Enlightened despot--but he was aware enough that he was the despot, even if he fancied himself Enlightened.) So do we have the lying paradox like France in 1780 or USSR in 1980?

Fred

TTG,

You need to make that 58 as two were shot to death in a Michigan courthouse yesterday.

Fred

Col.,

Two more pieces of evidence that put the lefts BM/LGBT talking pionts through the shredder. What a shocker, cops are not the racists that the left has made them out to be for years. The “toxic masculinity” and “rape culture” as espoused by the feminist left, best epitomized in the US by the Rolling Stone Faux Rape story, is shown to be the toxic assault on Western culture it always was. Of course we will hear the elected rape apologists tell the world we can’t discuss “refugees” or “foreigners” because …..; just like this German legislator is doing.

“ It seemed to me that he was saying that Obama would tell us what to think. “

That sounds exactly like the left, who think the President is commander in chief of the citizens and it is our duty to adhere to their mandate to enforce cultural uniformity across the nation in all forms of acceptable thought and discourse.

jonst

I not sure I understand the connection, in fact I am SURE I don't understand it, between being an 'easy woman', or man, as the case may be these days, and therefore being seeing as welcoming some unknown creep's assault in a public space. The ones I saw arrested did not appear to be big on bathing....and basically were wearing homeless shelter type clothes. "Easy" or not, who wants those creeps near them?

"Easy", has nothing to do with. "easy" have no desire to be assaulted by creeps. Its more like, 'go home, bath, brush your teeth, get someone other than you social worker to select your clothes, get enough money to buy more than a stinkin hamburger at McDonald's, get a car, or at least be able to afford a taxi, and a nice hotel room, or decent flat (in other words, grow up), and when you've done all that come back and see me').

rjj

here in days of yore same was assumed about anybody who did see the benefits of becoming a client via parlaying a cherry into a sinecure.

Eric Newhill

johnA,

I haven't read the new study. I did read, in detail, the older studies I mentioned. I repeat that controlling for aggravating circumstances Blacks are treated fairly under the law.

You don't like that because you want to fan the flames of a race war. You and Obama. Well, based on what "the movement" plans for this weekend and at the GOP convention, it looks like you'll get your wish. Not what you people want? Then you should check your rhetoric. Probably too late.

The Twisted Genius

I should have provided a link to that Washington Post interactive database. It was first provided by bks on 8 July.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-2016/

Babak Makkinejad

The United States, in fact, almost suffered the fate of the Soviet Union after four score years of statehood in the War Between the States.

Lee chose the path of honor to fight for his country - Virginia.

I suppose one can consider Yelstin to have chosen his own country - Russia - over USSR.

Yugoslavia also disappeared almost after so many years.

USSR and Yugoslavia shared one feature - the existence of inassimilable Muslims that belonged to a different civilization and culture - something that India has shared with them as well.

I wonder if India will disintegrate sometime around 2040; another nuclear-armed state whose weapons are controlled by Hindus.


turcopolier

rjj

"into a sinecure" As a wife? I thought you had been married. Well, our mores have changed and theirs have not. pl

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