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12 July 2016

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DC

Sir - on these facts, I believe the European women were treated even worse than whores. At least whores are expected to be paid for their service. Or, are whores not paid in majority-muslim cultures? There must be more to explain the cultural "difference" than this.

Eric Newhill

Regarding the findings of the Harvard study on the racial aspects (or lack thereof) of police use of force: Way back when I was in grad school I took some public policy elective classes b/c I was studied economics with a healthcare focus and that track was mentored through the public policy school. I learned from scholarly studies, even back then, that it was known that if one controls for aggravating circumstances (e.g. arguing, resisting arrest, attempting to flee, being armed) that apparent racial biases in both alleged police use of excessive force and harshness of sentencing tend to disappear. I guess some people need to be reminded. Or perhaps that the current study was performed by a black man makes it more legitimate. Anyhow, glad it is gaining attention at this time and hopefully it will introduce some sanity into the national psyche.

Regarding the differences exhibited by recent immigrants from the MENA. 1. This group seems to be different (not in a good way) from the MENA immigrants I knew growing up. Maybe that is b/c there was a tighter - and better - selection criteria 40 or 50 years ago. 2. The left is demonstrating their insanity/schizophrenia yet again. What happens when the children of all of these people start hitting the liberal public school system and come home telling their parents about all the wonderful atheism they are learning, and that homosexuality is a good thing, even heroic, and their daughters want to dress like trashy teen idols, etc. The clash of civilizations hasn't even begun, IMO. And to think, the left hates Christians for their outlooks, yet imports people who are at least as devoted to their old school religion, but without the love and forgiveness and turn the other cheek ideology. The Left is soooooo deluded.

Bill Herschel

All cards are now on the table:

"“We ought to be providing lethal aid”—anti-tank, anti-armor weapons, unmanned aerial vehicles, and cyber assistance—to the Ukrainian government in its struggle with Russian-backed separatists, retired NATO commander Adm. James Stavridis told the Senate Armed Services Committee on Tuesday.

Soviet President Vladimir Putin “has demonstrated he is the bully in the neighborhood” by seizing parts of Georgia, Crimea and Ukraine.

As to whether sending lethal aid would cause Russia to send more aid, and even troops, to support the separatists, Stavridis said, in answer to a question, “This is a calculation” that it will not commit its forces, but “when you release ordnance, everything changes.”

The former top officer in European Command added, “If the Ukrainian government cannot hold the line against the separatists [in the eastern region of the country], they will lose politically.” The United States is “trying to stabilize a democracy.”

This is our next Vice President if Hillary Clinton is elected. But it also reveals that Clinton is a neocon through and through.

Cee

Col. Lang,

I was just reading that. People are shot out of fear, which is understandable considering drug use and guns. I'd find a different line of work.

turcopolier

DC

"Whore" here is used as a description of instinct and practice rather than occupation. Would you like "slut" better? "There must be more to explain the cultural "difference" than this." Ah! I have heard this before. You probably do believe that we are basically all the same, and so have little use for "the culture thing." pl

turcopolier

Cee

Ah you must be talking about the cops and robbers world. Shooters in my world did so because that was "taking care of business." pl

Stonevendor

The initial findings of killings are certainly counter intuitive. But Fryer pointed out that this is by no means a national data investigation. Would there be a difference if you investigated N.Y.C., Chicago and Seattle. Or Wash., D.C., St. Louis, Salt Lake City and San Francisco? In the samples that he drew were there differences in L.A., Houston and Dallas compared to the smaller cities? Would that be true nationwide? This certainly opens a wide avenue for statistical investigation.

Ironically, in light of the recent shootings there, Dallas has a pretty good reputation of police relations with the citizens -- in contrast to decades ago. Their chief (black) has presented a very calm and level headed demeanor during the days following the shootings. He praised his department, spoke well of the Black Lives Matter demonstrators and invited members of the group to come apply for a job with the police department. If they passed the background checks and the training he would guarantee them that they would be put back into the communities of their choice. This is a very savvy fellow.

turcopolier

Stonevendor

Yes, you and Gene Robinson can "examine the data" together. Surely there must be something wrong with this study. Surely! pl

Valissa

It is my understanding that in many muslim cultures, especially in the ME, the anti-Western propaganda has much to say about the social decadence of the west and the decline of "virtue." Perhaps these ME men were hoping that was true, or believed it to be true, and that therefore assumed European women were "easy" and that they could therefore treat these women differently than women from their own culture.

turcopolier

Eric Newhill

The old timie immigrants to the West were not reinforced in their resistance to actual Western culture by the consensus of the masses of numbers. But, there were problems still, the odd "honor killing" of a girl who tried to assimilate, cab drivers who would not take fares who had been drinking, etc. pl

Valissa

When I first saw the headline for this post, I thought it would be about this...

Bernie Sanders endorses Hillary Clinton http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/11/politics/hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders/

IMO, anyone who is still looking for a politician to be their "hero" or "champion" needs to become more realistic about the ways of power and money.


turcopolier

valissa

"the anti-Western propaganda" You mean the general feeling among the pious concerning Western culture? That requires no "propaganda." Yes, they would see the antics of western women on such an occasion as a "proof" and validation of what they hoped was true about them. Most young Muslim men live in a state of sexual deprivation. And then, all of a sudden ... Look at this guys! pl

Ante

A great left thinker, Slavoj Zizek, has been relentlessly attacked because of this piece http://www.lrb.co.uk/2015/09/09/slavoj-zizek/the-non-existence-of-norway

We should nevertheless reject the left-liberal attitude. The complaints that moralise the situation – ‘Europe is indifferent to the suffering of others’ etc – are merely the obverse of anti-immigrant brutality. They share the presupposition, which is in no way self-evident, that the defence of one’s own way of life is incompatible with ethical universalism. We should avoid getting trapped in the liberal self-interrogation, ‘How much tolerance can we afford?’ Should we tolerate migrants who prevent their children going to state schools; who force their women to dress and behave in a certain way; who arrange their children’s marriages; who discriminate against homosexuals? We can never be tolerant enough, or we are always already too tolerant. The only way to break this deadlock is to move beyond mere tolerance: we should offer others not just our respect, but the prospect of joining them in a common struggle, since our problems today are problems we share.

His larger point being that there are large differences in western European and in rural Syrian Sunni culture, and that pointing them out isn't racism, it's simply reality, rather than a fantasy where all people are exactly the same. And he continues that living in that fantasy allows these various mass outrages to happen, which empower reactionary nationalistic parties. As always, liberals feed and then give way to fascists.

As for police in america, black people get tired of being treated like criminals for existing, and shootings by police are just locii to concentrate these feelings around. Wether or not they're shot more or less isn't their deepest concern.

David Habakkuk

All,

I think a paper to which ‘walrus’ linked in an earlier thread is well worth bringing into the discussion. It is entitled ‘The Danger of the “Black Lives Matter” Movement’.

(See https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/the-danger-of-the-black-lives-matter-movement/ .)

Its argument, as summarised by ‘walrus’, whose son is a police officer:

‘Basically the prevalence of black on black crime ensures that Police will face a prevalence of armed homicidal blacks in their daily work.

‘The ultimate cause of black crime is a separate discussion from the police response. to it. The scholarly paper explains that the police response is both entirely understandable and beneficial to what passes for the black community as a whole. A corollary is that the black community is going to suffer more if police behavior is forcibly modified as a result of more PC correctness.’

Of course, as I have no claims to any expertise in this area, I cannot rule out the possibility that the paper’s analysis is flawed. I am curious as to whether supporters of ‘Black Lives Matter’ can provide a cogent refutation.

What I can say from British experience are three things. 1. In general, ‘victim’ culture does not originate with ‘victim’ groups, but with élite white groups, whose enthusiasm for identifying with the ‘underdog’ commonly has distinctly suspect undertones; 2. Even where people have very good reasons to see themselves as ‘victims’, doing so can be deeply demoralising; and 3. that in this respect, ‘Black Lives Matter’ and ‘AIPAC’ seem to me rather similar, and equally pernicious.

turcopolier

DC

I was a member of the HF Guggenheim Foundation board of directors for many years. We relentlessly gave free money to aspiring social science scholars. I found that the common thread in the thinking of all these folks was an effort to re-define human nature into categories more comfortable for those unhappy with the demonstrated nature of man in his endless search for group identity through shared belief. This search seeks endlessly to denigrate the power of culture and to search "beneath" for the "real," i.e., economic, truth of all things. pl

FkDahl

Some details:
Young men of MENA often hold these views: a woman walking alone showing skin is a whore. In an interview on Swedish TV some young men of such background in a suburb were interviewed (and they were of course chosen to be likable) they slipped and used the term Svennehora (Swedish whore) synonymous with young girl. Oops.
Porn is widely available in these countries these days, 60% of performers are white, and that probably contributes to their view on Western women. There is an over representation of bizarre search terms for incest, pedofilia or bestiality (does not imply men there like these things, these are the Google search term data).
In Sweden it appears the Overton window has shifted and mass media can carefully write somewhat openly about the problems with gang rapes, mass groping or honour killings. Just a little bit though, the vast majority of media and journalists are solidly leftist pro-immigration.
This guys says how it is - and he came from (former rep of Yugoslavia)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA9yjrqtWG0&list=PLo0ElGp48iyJ35AXMCadvnzYK6fJth4ho&index=7

scott s.

Stonevendor:

This is what I found kind of amazing when I read the NYT piece -- why is it "counter intuitive" at all? I have no intuition at all when it comes to law enforcement use of deadly force. What perception I might have is created by media and political figures' slant and spin.

rjj

"they could therefore treat these women differently than women from their own culture."

or the same as loose women from their culture???? the rules for cross-cultural cross-gender transactions are all unwritten -- it is a minefield. same goes for regional subcultures.

Valissa

There have been a slew of articles among the intelligentsia whining about the failure(s) of liberalism recently. I find that oddly amusing. While I agree that liberalism has lots of problems (which is why I am an ex-liberal), I find that a limiting frame for interpreting current events. Another example of a simple minded ideological approach to life's complexities and ambiguities.

The Twisted Genius

Stonevendor,

This Washington Post article and interactive database, in spite of its misleading title, will let you discover all the answers you want about police shootings. It clearly shows there is no blue conspiracy to kill blacks. And this database was available since 7 July for any of the esteemed faces on "Mornin' Joe" to discover. I don't understand why Eugene Robinson of the Washington Post would be surprised. Doesn't he read his own paper?

The truth of the NYT study and the WaPo database should slap the mouths dry of all those who say there is a race war brewing. Not only is there no blue conspiracy to kill blacks, but there is no black conspiracy to kill cops. This year 56 police officers have died in the line of duty with 26 of those killed by gunfire. All these killings are tragic, some are stupid and a few are flat evil, but it is not indicative of a coming race war. The NYT study concludes that there is evidence of a police bias against blacks and there is work to be done. We should do that work and call out all those who squeal hysterically about conspiracies and race wars.

Tyler

The usual suspects come out to attempt to handwave away there stats. "TV tells me blacks are all noble rocket scientist brain surgeons and Muslims are all moderate liberals! What is going on! Hrmmm!" they say from their lily white zip codes.

Some of you people have so much invested in being a goodthinker you can't see reality until it's a 17 year old negro buck beating your head in for your stupid electronic toy.

Patrick D

Valissa,

No propaganda necessary. Simply watching Hollywood movies, even after censoring, would cement the belief that Western women are "easy" if that is the only point of reference.

Harry

Forgive me but I don't trust the nyt to comment on statistics. I have found the paper to be utterly innumerate in the past. It does not constitute proof but is reason for doubt on any figures they "interpret". That said, I have come to the conclusion that the problem of police shootings is not an issue of race. Considering the ethnicity of the police shooter in Minesota, or the recent "road rage" shooting in east nyc. Instead it is an issue of police prioritizing their own safety above the publics safety.

elaine

All, The left in both Europe & the U.S. seems to power their agendas by claiming
to be offended. I'm offended. There, I have said the magic words. I find much of what
the far left does & says offensive. Now the balance has been restored & all is once
again o.k. Right? Or doesn't it work that way? Please consider me offended.

Babak Makkinejad

You might also find this interesting:

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/02/08/cover-story-personal-history-elif-batuman

Please search for the following text and start at three paragraphs earlier:

"I replied, in my simplistic Turkish, that to me this sounded like a threat: either cover your head or rape can happen."

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