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26 July 2016

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turcopolier

b

"from and through Turkey and the CIA" You have no proof whatever for this accusation against the United States. None! It is rooted solely in your unrelenting enmity for the United States. A book published by some "scholar" who shares your prejudice is not proof. I want names, dates, places. pl

turcopolier

Dubhaltach

"one should consider not only the information but its source" That is not what I said. Your formulation of implies that you should condition belief by considering the source. In a general sense that is true but the essence of my "maxim" is that information should not be discounted solely because of the source. The reason for that being the possibility that other information may establish a truth in which the original item is confirming. pl .

Bill Herschel

I learn more reading this blog and its comments than I do reading every MSM out there.

With regard to Turkey, I now believe that what happens in Turkey and, for that matter, the rest of the ME is irrelevant in the U.S.

I sincerely believe that Trump is owned and operated by Russia (cf. missing tax returns). And because I am a million miles off topic I will be brief.

When Germany invaded Russia they had the best military on earth. When Russia invaded Germany only a few years after, Russia had the best military on earth (cf. the Manchuria campaign). In particular Russia beat Germany with tanks, the great German strength.

How long did the United States' insular, cliquish elite think it could tamper with governments around the world, edging closer and closer to the borders of Russia, not to mention tampering with the government of Russia itself, before Russia would turn the tables?

Yet, even now, they bleat about the Atlantic Alliance (a.k.a. [hiatus in manuscript]). That is denial. The elite needs to look at what happened in the Republican Primaries. They need to look at Brexit. Look hard and look quick. The New York Times says that Hillary Clinton's chance of being elected is the same as an NBA player making a foul shot. I've seen John Havlicek miss foul shots, and Hillary Clinton is no John Havlicek.

Trump will destroy the United States.

Babak Makkinejad

I generally agree with you but I think it works both ways; that the outlook of Western Europeans, also, remains Traditional in their own sense - like in Italy where even the communists baptized their children.

Babak Makkinejad

Samuel Huntington was empirically vindicated in the Iran Nuclear case where the entirety of Western Diocletian Civilization waged an economic & financial war against the core state of Muslim Civilization (Seljuk and non-Seljuk).

Significantly, the states that helped Iran were non-Diocletian states; Turkey (but not Russia or India) and China.

Ishmael Zechariah

Bill Herschel,
Do you really think that the Clintons are less susceptible to blackmail than Trump?
Ishmael Zechariah

turcopolier

Bill Herschel

"I sincerely believe that Trump is owned and operated by Russia (cf. missing tax returns)." Really? Why? Business follows capital and markets. What would be wrong with doing business in Russia, or China, or Turkey, etc.? I think you are just looking for a propaganda opportunity. OTOH I think he should release his tax returns just as herself should release her Wall Street speaking transcripts. pl

Ishmael Zechariah

Folks,
For some in the West this is a casus belli. They had been working to stymie this for a decade.
Ishmael Zechariah

bth

Putin and Erdogan meet up on 9 August so expect constant build up to that date. Looks like Russia pipeline into Europe, Russia controlled gas field access from Cyprus via Turkey, reopening of food access to Russia from Turkey, shift toward Turkey agreeing to work with Assad on live let live basis in return for heavy hand on Kurds in Syria by Assad plus intel sharing in Caucus region with Russia are all in play. Also keep in mind Turkey needs trucking routes south and Kurds/US have done a pretty good job of obstructing that in the center. Now that Russia has passed on its messaging to its various news outlets we will hear nonstop about it with ever more elaborate color commentary about US involvement in Turkey with increasing detachment from reality. Targeting Gen. Campbell by latest conspiracy incantation likely goes clear back to handling of Turk SF outside Kirkuk in 2003 by 173rd AB. Net result likely Finlandization of Turkey this Fall. One wonders how Erdogan plans to divide up the Gulen spoils amongst his network?

SmoothieX12

For some in the West this is a casus belli

The key phrase here is "for some". More importantly, those "some" are well known, they are easily identifiable and their intentions are not a secret anymore. As per real war on Russia--it is not as easy as neocon "strategists" think, but then again, the level of those "strategists" is such that they wouldn't be allowed to run a local diner in any normal community, let alone plan wars. I do submit, however, that this is what makes them so dangerous--having no clue.

Bill Herschel

I think what's bothering me is that the narrative line in Washington is that the U.S. faces threats from abroad, that our City on the Hill is in danger from foreign influence. You have commented on the inanity of our insistence that we are better than everyone else. But this goes well beyond that. I think Trump represents a threat from within. And I will be happier than anyone when he releases his tax returns and they are innocuous.

Clinton? If Clinton were anything but what she is no one would be talking about any of this. Is she in bed (what a thought) with the financial elite? Do birds fly?

Bill Herschel

That is an interesting question. If the answer is they are equally susceptible, then you have to choose your fifth column. We have just done too much to piss off the Russians. I wouldn't blame them for a second if they were out to tear the U.S. to bits from within.

b

You may want to talk to PBS about its "unrelenting enmity for the United States". It shares my belief that the CIA was (and probably is) involved in large scale opiate trades.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/heroin/etc/history.html

Southern Europe in the early cold war, then the golden triangle, then south America, then Afghanistan. Wherever there is heavy U.S. action and CIA involvement there flourishes a new center of opiate production.
Pure coincidence of course. And Air America only flew legal matters.

turcopolier

b

Alfred W. McCoy is the source for the unsigned chronology from PBS. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_W._McCoy is as fervent a fantacist about the US government as you are. I invite anyone to look at his citations in the listed work and report back on that. BTW Air America was not founded for the purpose of supporting the drug trade. It had many function and I doubt that was among them.

Ex-PFC Chuck

John Helmer posted on the strategic implications of the Russ/Turk rapprochement below is a link Naked Capitalism's repost with introductory comments. Helmer's Russian sources tell him Moscow didn't tip off Erdogan.
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/07/john-helmer-the-new-byzantine-alliance-will-russia-and-turkey-revolutionize-the-center-of-the-old-world.html

SmoothieX12

Samuel Huntington was empirically vindicated

On many points he was, others--not so much. But at least he made a leap after his Vietnam warmongering and The Clash Of Civilizations remains one of the most thought-provoking and, in reality, peace-loving books. He screwed up, of course, on Russia's account (which is expected from most US academe) and on the magazine he founded--Foreign Policy--a collection of neocons and interventionists (also of Russophobes). But his main strategic failure was Fareed Zakaria;-))

Dubhaltach

In reply to turcopolier 27 July 2016 at 07:52 AM

Colonel,

I was paraphrasing and plainly not doing it terribly well. My meaning was that while what he was saying could very well be true that Ishmael Zechariah's clearly and passionately expressed partisanship was such that I would be reluctant to accept his assertion without some supporting further evidence.

(This isn't to impute mala fides to him)

rjj

Naive question. Have not been following this thread. Know NOTHING, so apologies (if they are in order).

b said: Erdogan is right now engineering a 180 degree turn in foreign policy orientation. From west to east (Russia, China, Iran).

Smoothie said: race, blood, faith are in the foundation... I saw many Turkmen, Azeri, Dagestani and Chechen non-urban localities in my life--even after 60-70 years of the serious secular (much more serious than Attaturk's) Soviet rule, the outlook remained distinctly Islamic...

Is this a "New Turkistan" operation on Russia's soft underbelly and in her last remaining grain growing region???

Thomas

"Is this a "New Turkistan" operation on Russia's soft underbelly and in her last remaining grain growing region???"

No. it is real policy making by the Sultan to survive and continue to rule with a possible future prize of being Sunni Islam's standard bearer (Caliph) for the next ten to twenty years.

Ishmael Zechariah

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2016/07/turkey-coup-attempt-profile-of-gulenist-soldier.html

Ishmael Zechariah

turcopolier

IZ

Understand that there is a mob/crowd outside the gate at Incirlik. http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/533682/incirlik-ss-air-base-turkey-protest-nato-us-demand-closure-nuclear-coup-video pl

rjj

that is what The Sultan is doing. How will he accomplish that - what will that look like in the -stans of quondam Turkistan with which he is seeking closer relations?

Thomas

"How will he accomplish that - what will that look like in the -stans of quondam Turkistan with which he is seeking closer relations?"

Turkey will become what its geography provides, a bridge country among Islam. Asia and Europe.

For the Stans, it would be in the form of economic cooperation with their brother Turks in which Turkish firms will hope to get established business relations, though how profitable will remain a question, diplomatic support as a go between for them with Russia and China regarding contentious issues, and cultural support in Islamic solidarity.

Greater Turkistan will be what it always was, a Grand Dream to discuss over coffee. Turkey is a significant regional player but not in the class of Russia which has shown via the Georgia and Crimea operations that there is no softness about them.

The key event which will bring all this to light will be if the border with Syria is closed as the Islamic State on Iraq-Syria is sent to the pages of history books in the coming weeks. The outcome of the August 9th meeting between Turkey and Russia will reveal whether this happens and on what scale, in my view.

Ishmael Zechariah

Col. Lang, SST;
Yes. There were protests. Incirlik is ~20 km to the city proper so there were convoys to bus the protesters. The police is protecting the base at this point. I do not believe anything will come of this.

Let us wait to see how tayyip's Russian gambit plays out.
Ishmael Zechariah

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