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23 May 2016

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Mark Pyruz

With respect as always, Colonel, highly unlikely by means of American support that SRV military forces can and somehow would be turned into a "super-ARVN" against PRC.

PRC defense ties to SRV remain in place.

Have to grudgingly admit, SRV is pretty damn clever at playing off world powers. During the Vietnam War, they played off USSR and PRC for competing assistance, and now during South China Sea dispute they appear set to play off USA and PRC for competing assistance.

charly

"peace is possible" while selling arms

turcopolier

Mark Pyruz
The Vietnamese and Chinese hate each other at the most basic level. have you forgotten the border war between them fought in the 80s? We are attempting to develop a coalition of powers in the western Pacific to contain China. Every blandishment will be offered to include VN in that. We will see how much the Vietnamese communists like our money. pl

turcopolier

Mark Pyruz

"super-ARVN" implies that the ARVN was an instrument of US power. If you think that you do not understand what the relationship was. The ARVN was never under US authority and was always very difficult to deal with. pl

mbrenner

The Tonkin region was controlled by various Chinese states beginning with the Han for the first millennium of the Common Era. At that time, the region encompassed most of Vietnamese populated territory. The Ming Dynasty briefly invaded in the early 15th century but was repulsed. Other than that, a bit of meddling on and off in factional politics. No idea how vivid these historical memories are.

It is noteworthy that the Chinese historically had little interest in empire building for its own sake. The slow expansion to the North and West was the extension of wars against the barbarians and involved sparsely populated areas for the most part. Ruling alien peoples was not their cup of tea. They demanded instead deference and tribute.

Not sure whether they'd accept our providing high-grade political entertainment as adequate tribute.

hans

I tutored Vietnamese immigrants in English for a couple of years in the 1980s and I can affirm that they hate the Chinese. The reaction was so emphatic I was completely startled by it. To characterize it for those who haven't seen it I would call it homicidal hatred it's so white hot. They weren't big on Khmers either I discovered after trying to merge two classes.

LondonBob

About 1.3bn Chinese, in China, with another 50m overseas. China will be the world's sole hyper-power, and not just dominate East Asia. I suppose one could waste a lot of men and treasure to try, and fail, to stop that inevitability, as Britain did with Germany and their inevitable domination of mainland Europe. Wiser would be to take the approach Britain did with the rise of the US, accept it and work with it. Best the US elite focused on the many domestic issues they act as if are not there, and use the legacy benefits of being the world's sole superpower to the the people's benefit.

turcopolier

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Yes. Very xenophobic. PL

 

Matthew

Well, at least the President didn't say "shared values."

Some of our Thought Leaders appear to belief that any action taken by the Russia or China--and not authorized by Washington, D.C.--is dangerous. See http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/order-from-chaos/posts/2016/05/23-putin-homefront-syria-hill

BraveNewWorld

>"suggested such concerns outweighed arguments that Vietnam had not done enough to improve its human rights record and Washington would lose leverage for reforms."

Does the US even pay lip service to human rights any where other than Syria/Iraq where they prefer the the human right record of AQ to either government? If you can joyfully sell weapons to the KSA, Qatar and the other GCC goons and thugs I don't see any problem with selling them to Vietnam or really even North Korea at that point.


TonyL

The Vietnamese word "mọi" means "indigenous", "primitive" people.
Not in any way related to animal. It's a condescending term, in the same way the word "indian" was used.

Vietnamese people have a prejudice agains Chinese, because of the thoudsand
year colonialism. Not because they are xenophobic.

Godfree Roberts

" The record of respect for anything that could be called human rights is abysmal in both countries. "

Perhaps, but not as abysmal as our own. If you score the 30 paragraphs of the UN Declaration fairly, you'll see that China's human rights record is now (and since 9/11) better than our own. http://www.inpraiseofchina.com/2014/07/china-u-n-human-rights.html

turcopolier

TonyL

That's funny they iused to tell me that the Montagnards were like animals and they called them "moi" in the same breath. if the Vietnamese prejudice against the Chinese is about the history of colonialism by the Chinese why do the Vietnamese despise the Montagnards, Khmer, Lao, etc.? I have known cases of Vietnamese women nurses pulling intra-venous lines out of Montagnards in the night saying afterward that these people did not deserve to live. You can BS people who were not there but it won't work with me. pl

turcopolier

GR

I looked at your site "In Praise of China." It seems clear that you are a PRC government activity. We will welcome a voice like that on SST. Please don't pretend to be American. pl

Brunswick

From what I have read, it's more or less the "ususal" reasons:

- Colonial use of divide and conquor,
- past histories of conquest
- skin colour, language, education
- tribalism
- "being" different.

I was reading a history of the pre-Division "migrations", and found accounts of deep divides and animosity between the Southern Catholics, and the Nothern Catholic refugees, both of whom hated each others guts, and how that animosity persisted right up to the fall of the South.

Bill Herschel

They've already got as much of our money as they want. Shoes, for example, are made in Vietnam.

http://www.innoluxgroup.com/#!our-network/c1ltf

This is all about military expansion. 50,000 troops in Japan. For what?

Jimmy_W

Historical note that there used to be many ethnic Chinese living in Vietnam, in the south. The 70s/80s Boat People were many of them ethnic Chinese purged out of Vietnam. The eviction of the ethnic Chinese was part of the pretext for the Sino-Vietnam war.

turcopolier

Jimmy_W

Yes. There were ethnic Chinese everywhere. Cholon was the Chinese quarter of Saigon. I knew many people from there. pl

turcopolier

Brunswick

I think it is a bit much to blame the mutual ethnic and religious animosities of the peoples of Indochina on the French. These peoples are quite capable of acting that way on their own just as analogous people do in the ME. the European colonial powers did not make the Shia and Sunni hate each other. tey did not make the Turks oppress the Kurds, etc. To think colonialism is responsible for local evils is to hold really severe paternalistic attitudes towards these peoples. pl

Brunswick

Col,
The French were not the "first" Colonists in Vietnam.

The broad range of languages and physical characteristics of the various "peoples" of Vietnam show that.

The long history of basically "feudalism" into the post war era of course, would not help the cause of "equality".

There are some researchers who claim that the South Asian trend of "anti-melanism" is a product of Colonialism. The treatment of amerasians would suggest that those researchers are "wrong", and that possibly the researchers who suggest it's a product of status, ( not working outside), may be "less wrong".

France's long policy of managing "Vietnam" as Tonkin, Annam and CochinChina, and holding the Tribal Confederations, (Hmong, Montegenard, Tai, Khymer, Tay, Mu'ong, Nung, Hoa) as separate from the Kihn, ( Vietnamese) didn't help much.

different clue

mbrenner,

They would accept our natural resources . . . ALL of them . . . as adequate tribute. In the long run, the ChinaGov sees America as one of its Overseas Tibets. That's what we have to prevent from happening.

turcopolier

Brunswick

Well, IMO the tribal minorities needed to be protected from the Vietnamese and the policy of separately administering these populations was altogether good, but then I was adopted by the Stiengan and Mnong Gar peoples. The Vietnamese would not have and will never accept these other peoples as equals. IMO the same policy in Syria was needed to protect the Alawites from the Sunnis. The present war in Syria is not the result of that policy. it is the result of the bloody mindedness of the Saudis and the neocon/R2P crowd. pl

Brunswick

Being Canadian, married to a Metis woman, living in a S'eptuwimuk majority area still dealing with the afgermaths of the Federal Government's "protection" of the First Nations, and the continual Federal/Provincial Treaty/no Treaty fights, I am aware of the double edge sword that "protection" entails,

and the French program in Vietnam was not to create a "nation".

William R. Cumming

Uncle HO once washed dishes in Paris. The U.S. continues as the world's largest arms proliferator, nuclear and conventional. When will any President level with the American people on this trade and its related "blowback" a term utilized by deceased Chalmers Johnson and others.

Oh well, perhaps HRC and the Donald are blowback for other errors of American leadership.

Study closely the 1999 Presidential Commission report to Congress studying WMD proliferation and headed by John Deutch.

TonyL

Correct spelling: separate from the Kinh.

"There are some researchers who claim that the South Asian trend of "anti-melanism" is a product of Colonialism. The treatment of amerasians would suggest that those researchers are "wrong", and that possibly the researchers who suggest it's a product of status, ( not working outside), may be "less wrong"."

True. It's a "status" thing. Mostly in the thinking of conservatives, that amerisans are of a lower class because they are children of GIs and women who married them for money. They need helps just like other minorities do.

I think Col Lang experience was with only a segment of the population. The soldiers or nurses at the front line thought they must show their toughness. The Vietnamese treats minorities as 2nd class citizens, but I don't think "hate" or "despise" is accurate at all.


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