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12 May 2016

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Tyler

Diva,

Nothing to do with deacons or clergy. Stay on target.

BabelFish

Matthew/Tyler: I want to make sure I clarify the 'conservative' reference as not really meaning political leanings but dogmatic.

Being a respondent Episcopalian (referred to by Robin Williams as "Catholic Light" - all of the blessings but only half the guilt), I experienced the strife over the change from the 1928 Book of Common Prayer to the 1979 version, with some congretations refusing to the use the new book. That would represent some of the doctrinal disagreements that I have seen in social media, regarding some of Pope Frank's reflections and changes.

Tyler

Richard,

32, and I know enough to call a wedge when I see it.

Tyler

charly,

I'd think that the Church has gone through a harder phases that it can figure out how to adapt to this, versus lighting the Catechism on fire in order to appeal to the NYT Ed Board and coastal liberals who are still going to find a reason to hate the Church.

Tyler

Ulen

- In which a German Protestant lectures Catholics on what's good for them.

my_sides_ache.txt

Tyler

TTG,

I have no clue where you are getting this.

Tyler

Dubhaltach,

Anglican, liberal Lutheran and Episcopal denominations are dying as they become more and more gay social clubs.

Like a typical progressive you have to lie and double down on your lie. No one is talking about exclusion, we're talking about female deacons and clergy. I know lies are your bread and butter but up your game.

The Twisted Genius

Tyler, here's two:

http://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-bomb-isis-2015-11

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2015/11/13/trumps_updated_isis_plan_bomb_the_shit_out_of_them_send_exxon_in_to_rebuild.html

Tyler

TTG,

And? Bomb IS and let the ground forces of others do the fighting. I don't see him going to war with Russia. I think you're seeing zebras here friend.

Matthew

TGG: A great novel begins with these two sentences: "For several years, I thought I might become a Maryknoll missionary. Instead, I became a Green Beret."

Tyler

Steve,

Yeah, he called it in 2004. More mendacious hair splitting.

How many countries did he destabilize compared to Hillary and the current administration. Lets put things into perspective here.

kao_hsien_chih

Why there aren't more married priests allowed by the Vatican has always baffled me, personally. Married priests are the norm in uniate Churches--as Catholic as Latin rite, but based on Greek or Middle Eastern traditions. Rather a lot of married clergy were allowed if they were already clergy in other denominations converting to Catholicism (many married Anglican and Lutheran clergymen received permission to become Catholic priests--one of my close friend's cousin's father-in-law is a such priest). Priestly celibacy has never been a matter of doctrine, after all. At minimum, making married clergy more common is something that can be accomplished, quite literally, with a single declaration, without needing any change other than mindsets.

The Twisted Genius

Tyler,

Cooper also asked whether the US would need troops on the ground to protect the oil fields that Trump would rebuild after bombing ISIS out of them. Trump said he would put a "ring" of troops around the fields.

"You put a ring around them," Trump said of the oil fields. "You put a ring."

He also said the following about taking on IS:

"I would listen to the generals," Trump said, "but I would - I'm hearing numbers of 20 to 30,000. We have to knock them out fast."

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/donald-trump-massive-ground-force-may-be-needed-to-fight-isis/

Granted, he says a lot of things, often contradictory. Sometimes he's refreshingly insightful. Sometimes he's bat shit crazy. You're guaranteed to find something you like, but so far he's only proven himself to be a first class bullshit artist.

The Twisted Genius

khc,

It began in the Middle Ages in the Roman Catholic Church and started with barring the children of priests from inheriting Church property.

charly

Isn't this the second time you make that wisecrack about gay social club, thankfully nobody would ever make that joke about the priesthood of the catholic church.


ps Prejudices of gays is that they are more social and have no kids. Being social seems to me to be very important for a clergy man and having no kids means having a lot of time to work so it may not be surprising that clergy end up gay

Dubhaltach

In reply to Tyler 13 May 2016 at 04:26 PM

It tells me all I need to know about you that your first response to every contradiction of your ludicrous and fear filled hyperbole such as, and I'm quoting you direct, "gay transgender clergy supporting more immigration" is bluster and your second is to immediately accuse the person contradicting you of mala fides.

It's pathetic, how come you project so much?

Dubhaltach

In reply to kao_hsien_chih 13 May 2016 at 06:19 PM

As TTG says the process started in the Middle Ages as reformers grappled with corrupt practises such as nepotism and accelerated with the counter-reformation. There's a long and more than somewhat turgid Vatican document dealing with this but the Final two paragraphs are particularly relevant:

"In the third and final period of the Council of Trent (1562-3), and despite considerable pressures, all suggestions that the Catholic Church should modify and mitigate its rules of celibacy were rejected. In Session XXIV on 11 November 1563, the Fathers upheld the prohibition of clerical marriage (c. 9), adding (concerning the difficulties): «For God would not deny the gift to those who duly ask for it (the gift of chastity), nor allow us to be tempted beyond our strength.» They also rejected the thesis that the marital state should be considered better than that of celibacy (c. l0).65 The Council, in Session XXIII, also voted in favour of founding seminaries to prepare candidates from their youth for the celibate life. The discipline of continence by this time had meant in practice that only an unmarried man would be ordained. This is also shown in the discussions of the Council, for example when one theologian, Desiderius de S. Martino, concerned by the shortage of priests, suggested the possibility of ordaining married men provided the wives gave consent and that they and their husbands lived in continence. But the measure was not deemed expedient.

The decrees of the Council were not immediately accepted in all nations but with time they did bring about a general observance of the law of celibacy, thanks in no small measure to their provisions for the better training of the clergy. The Enlightenment brought fresh assaults against clerical celibacy and after the First Vatican Council, the Old Catholics, separating themselves from Rome, abolished the rule. Despite the pressures on the Catholic Church to relax the law of celibacy, it has always resisted. Pope Benedict XV declared, in his Consistorial Allocution of 16 December 1920, that the Church considered celibacy to be of such importance that it could never abolish it. Following Vatican II, the Church has made an exception for married deacons of mature age and for individual former non-Catholic clergymen, following a precedent set by Pope Pius XII."

You're right about the exceptions being made for married clergy from other denominations being accepted as Catholic priests but this is very exceptional and only applies to clergy who in the eyes of the church have been validly made priests in the first place. Not every Lutheran would be considered to be such whereas every Anglican clergyman who can prove his ordination was carried out in due form would be considered. This is because of the doctrine of Apostolic succession. Briefly put the Catholic church considers that Anglican bishops have it and thus ordinations performed by them are valid while only some Lutheran bishops have it and therefore not all Lutheran clergy are validly ordained. Danish Lutheran clergy for example are not considered to be validly ordained priests because of a lack of provable apostolic succession amongst other reasons. So for Lutherans it's very much done on a case-by-case basis with no presumptions in favour.

Not sure what the situation is with Orthodox clergy - I _think_ it's the same as with Anglicans that they're considered to have valid orders and so don't require re-ordination.

Sorry if all that's too much information :-)

Bill Herschel

I think that what Trump was talking about was essentially the same as what Russia did, except described hyperbolically. Russia interdicted ISIS' sale of stolen oil. And they definitely damaged a lot of infrastructure. And they have supported a "ring of troops", namely SAA, to attempt to protect Syria from ISIS.

I listened to the Howard Stern section in which Trump, very reluctantly, supports the invasion of Iraq:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/in-2002-donald-trump-said-he-supported-invading-iraq-on-the?utm_term=.axlPqomgp#.vsPvVgXqA

In the first place, Trump sounds truly rational. In the second, he clearly is beset by doubt. And the record shows that he quickly opposed the war.

I honestly don't think he's true Borg. He has managed to get into bed with Sheldon Adelson, which is very definitely a Borg litmus test, but I wonder what it means.

After destroying the Party elites' candidates, can the elite really think Trump will not destroy them? If I were Sheldon Adelson, I would be very afraid.

Tyler

TTG,

I'm not worried about it. Obviously pre-empting the gotcha of "WELL WHADDAYA DO NOW, RANGER?" after bombing IS.

Tyler

charly,

Its not a crack as much as it is a fact.

I don't have to make that about the priesthood because the Lavender Mafia is a known quantity.

You forgot that homosexuals are predisposed to pedophilia and a host of other social dysgenics. Exactly the type of person I want as clergy. (that was sarcasm lel)

Tyler

Dubhaltech,

And SJWs always project. You got called on your horsesh-t trying to deflect and now its "why are you always scared"? Lel, why is it always fear with you progressives? Whatever happened to being disgusted (which is what this is).

And yes, gay transgender clergy supporting illegal immigration is pretty much the mission of the Anglican and Episcopal denominations nowadays. Well that and making sure that they roll over for salafists.

Why are you so pathetic and disgusting? Is there any perversion you won't defend?

kao_hsien_chih

With regards the Uniate Churches (at least the Greek Catholics), the ordination is governed by the Union of Brest: married priests (under the same rules as the Orthodox Church) are accepted as licit, if they were married before ordination. I've met a number of married Catholic priests, although of the Eastern (not Latin) Catholic Churches and they were very explicit about the priestly celibacy not being required by doctrine.

Even within the Latin rite, I'm told that married clergy, though rare, are much more common than people think, although this is not spoken of much. My friend, for example, did not know that his cousin's father-in-law was a priest until several years later.

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